to find it incredibly irritating when in certain circles school fees are talked about as if they are a necessity, not a choice?

[emkana]

Like Emma Thomson currently on the Women programme on BBC 4, or very often in the "Style" section of the Sunday Times.

How awful to have to be careful. Only ten days in Italy!

No, I didn't miss 'the point'. As I said, necessities differ. End of.
Even if you live in a council flat you do have choices to change your circumstances if you really wanted to. You could up your training, take courses and make yourself more gainfully employable and perhaps get away from the state paid accommodation altogether. Taking it as if your fate is sealed and you have no choices is bit too naive.
I know i get fabulously flamed by all single parents living on council estates as I have dared to commit a sacrilege by commenting on such revered topic, well, so be it.
Again, for some people, paying for education is necessity.
Life is not fair, the individuals who have come across hard times and are barely making it, have sadly ended with the short end of the stick.
To say that all are equal is naive as we are all different, we have had different opportunities and experiences and are not same. It would be wonderful if we lived in a world where it could be true but alas, utopia is as useful as Shangri-La.

Working holiday, Missus. And first one since 2006.

A council flat isn't state paid accomodation love - you have to pay rent. Are you confusing social housing with housing benefit?

Ah yes, and my sister is a single mum making extensive use of out of school clubs at her children's state schools, and for two children it costs her the best part of £500 a month. £1000 a month in holidays. Hardly bloody given away. And she has to rush back from work to pick up the children up at 6 and loses hours a week of her supposed working hours such that our mother has to nip over to help her every two months by looking after the children so she can do longer hours and catch up. So hardly free, a state school education.

Does the op mean people that it is not a necessity, like smoking 20 cigarettes a day. It is slightly annoying to hear someone complaining about being broke when they smoke. To them the cigarettes are like a necessity, but bit galling.

Most people (not me, I hasten to add) DON'T have friends with houses in Italy.

This illustrates the whole point. However, hard up people are in order to pay school fees, they are not hard up in the sense of most people who really are poor, and hence have absolutely no 'choice' as to where their children are schooled.

This isn't about how much anyone has to scrimp and save for school fees, this is about the fact that the UK has a two tier education system, one for the 'haves' and one for the 'have nots'.

And before anyone says I am jealous, I am not as I am very fortunately in the 'haves' camp . What really riles me is those people who simply CANNOT see that it is SO unfair. I am at least willing to admit it isn't fair, even if I don't remove my DCs from their grammar school/top universities to make a point. I also don't know what the answer is, but it is an interesting subject that should be discussed beyond the 'I'm alright Jack' point of view.

"I know i get fabulously flamed by all single parents living on council estates as I have dared to commit a sacrilege by commenting on such revered topic, well, so be it."

I am a middle aged middle class person who is degree educated, as is my husband, and we have been married for 16 years. My husband works in a very specialist job, which few people can do, and he is self employed and runs two businesses. We live in London and have two children and our income is way above average. No two ways about it. But there is no way we could send our children to private school. And I "flame" you for being so arrogant.

FFS- he bloody lives in Italy!! There are people who live in Italy you know.

Missus, I admit to being quite ignorant about different state benefits, so glad you took the time to enlighten me.

At the risk of getting into competitive poverty here, I haven't had a holiday with my children since 2006 either, but I don't have thousands of pounds saved up as a consequence. I am just skint. School fees wouldn't be an option even if I wanted to make that decision. And I take exception to the old 'pull yourself up by the bootstraps' stuff too- if it was as easy as retraining to get the prize of a well-paid job, I'm sure more people would do it. As it is, people with qualifications and years of experience are being thrown out of work at a rate of knots. I'm well educated (not privately!) myself, with post-grad training, but I have had to do low-paid work for years now as being a carer for a disabled child is not terribly conducive to reliability and energy, so the greasy pole is out of my reach. I try to help my eldest achieve her potential at her state school, and she is bright and well-supported at home, but I sometimes think she would do better in a more academic environment. No point thinking that way though, have just got to get on with it. That is a matter of "no choice", not "I am choosing whether to spend my money on Expensive Thing A or Expensive Thing B".

I don't have time to read most of this thread but have seen some of the most recent comments

Rollmops- you are making yourself sound ignorant and foolish:
'Even if you live in a council flat you do have choices to change your circumstances if you really wanted to. You could up your training, take courses and make yourself more gainfully employable and perhaps get away from the state paid accommodation altogether. Taking it as if your fate is sealed and you have no choices is bit too naive.
I know i get fabulously flamed by all single parents living on council estates as I have dared to commit a sacrilege by commenting on such revered topic, well, so be it.'

I think someone else has already pointed out that council housing is not necessarily state funded. I'm afraid it is you who sounds naive and stuck in your own little world.

'Again, for some people, paying for education is necessity'

This is ludicrous! Next you will try to argue that designer clothes and three foreign holidays a year are also 'a necessity'.

People who choose to educate their children privately make the choice, in most cases, because they feel it will benefit their child (in a variety of ways). I understand why some people are suggesting that it is a selfish choice (ie putting your own child's needs above the rest of society's) but this is only human nature and will never change! What I do find irritating is when (a small number) of parents educate their children privately, feel that it is possible because they have worked v hard, etc, implying that others with less well paid jobs have not. This is just nonsense. Nowadays, there doesn't seem to be much of a link between the merits of a job or even the level of education required and the salary.

looby..., your comment :"I understand why some people are suggesting that it is a selfish choice (ie putting your own child's needs above the rest of society's..."
IS the most idiotic I have come across in a long while.
There's something deeply wrong with parents who don't put the needs of their child above the rest of the society.

Is that the difference? Some people put socety ahead of their children and some people put their children before society? Do the people who put society first only benefit if everyone does so, or at least a critical mass?

I see the unfairness, and understand the arguemnt against it, but do it anyway as I want to do the best for my child and am lucky enough to have a choice.

I have a very dear friend, our children were in the 'bottom group' togteher and struggling. I have moved my DS to a private school to give him, what I hope is an advantage, she cannot afford to. We both know this is unfair, she would like to move her DD but can't. Not because they don't work as hard, have as good qualifications. are not preapred to make 'sacrifices' or don't care as much but just because their financial circumstances prevent it.

Luckily she is a very wise and kind friend,who harbors no resntement and only a sadness that she wishes she could do the same (and sod her sopcialist principles if she could says she) and I am hopefully sensitive enough to not harp on about the crappy old school and the fantstic shiny new one, or to think we can just afford it cos we try harder.

There could do with beng a bit more of this attitude both ways on MN. No need to insult the children of people who choose private eductaion and no need to list your sacrifices if you do to prove how worthy you are.

Only quite extraordinary parents would put the needs of society above that of their child ime.

Hypothetical children before you have them, oh yes!! Your principles will never falter...then they arrive and the 'I'll fight to the death'(/or pay school fees) if I need to (or can) gene takes over. Again, in my very personal, experince.

its fine to put your own children's needs first. But you can't escape the fact it is a wholly self=interested act. You are doing it for you and your family. Not society. Not other children. Not your friends. Self interest is not always a perjorative term.

Understand the arguement but you could argue that a mortgage is not a necessity either - what is wrong with renting?!

Completely agree with you, SmileysPeepul - a great post.

Rollmops, really, not everybody in social housing are feckless wastrels dealing crack...whatever the Daily Mail might tell you.

Smiley- I didn't list our "sacrifices" to show how worthy we are, just to say that actually some (many ime) people paying school fees do not do so easily and do not deserve any cries of "oh but you don't live in the real world" levelled at them. Around here, most of the private school parents drive around in 10 yo cars spewing smoke with cracks in the windscreen. So do some of the state school parents. There are also people needlessly driving 4x4s (I say needlessly because there are many around here who do need to drive 4x4s- rural Devon roads can become impassable very quickly in adverse weather and also there are a lot of farmers around here). There are complete arsehole parents in state schools and private schools.

Not every parent in private school is totally detached and living in an elitist bubble, not every state school parent is above reproach. I will say this again (doubtless yet again to cries of tokenism) but several of my daughter's friends are children of single mums. They are all only children, just to say that it is just about possible on a standard Devon wage (ie low) to afford fees at my children's school as long as you're not trying to do it for several children. I know of several children at their school who live in council houses.

Xst sake, what is wrong with self interest? If we do not take care of our own interests, then who should???? The State?!
Absurd, however it seems some live in hazy pink utopia and are happy to put comrades above their own offspring. Why, begs the question?

Just popped back in to comment on this:

"Surely the idea is that if there were just schools - rather than all this "better", "more desirable" schools nonsense, and schools where a child's place was determined by the parent's supernatural belief or the parent's width of wallet - surely that would be better for everyone."

Yes dear. It would be very nice if world poverty could be eradicated and all unpleasant dictatorships eliminated as well ...

However as a parent I have an obligation to deal with the reality of our education system and making sure the DCs emerge from it with some sort of education. Hell would freeze over before I sent my DCs to the local comp (and yes I did visit it). I feel no guilt whatsoever about this choice.

In fact, what I do feel, is a simmering resentment at the general awfulness at the education system for serving up this sort of inadequate slop for our children.

rolls mops, what part of "self-interest is not always a perjorative term" did you not understand?

We all operate out of self interest, of course we do. But there is no moral high ground attached to that. Its just the way it is.

Do you feel I am saying you are selfish and horrible? I am not. I am just saying be clear about what you are doing, and own it for what it is. Putting you and yours first, as we all do. There is nothing altruistic about it.

Madame..., thank you for the info about crack dealers, so very kind of you. Don't have to waste my pennies to buy a copy of DM now and can keep 'em selfishly to pay for the educachhhion.