To wonder how many people actually understand

[TheLadyEvenstar]

How it feels for the Victim and victims family when a criminal is released or escapes and then reoffends?

I have one hell of a lot of sympathy for James Bulgers family and to some extent understand how she is feeling right now.

1993 little James was murdered, that was also the year i was sexually and violently assaulted, no the 2 were not connected. But one thing that does connect them is Jack Straw made a bad decision on both cases.

He made the final decision on releasing the Bulger killers and also the final decision on moving my attacker from Rampton to Prestwich hospital - the result in both has been awful.

For Denise and her family they had to be notified when these 2 were released, and now that Venables is back inside after commiting another crime - level 4 child pornography - just one less than beastiality and violent pornography/acts.

For myself I was contacted in 2006 to tell me the criminal who attacked me had escaped and was on the loose. Took from November 2006 - March 2007 for him to be caught and then only because he reoffended did that happen.

I know the dread i felt daily and the pain it caused me and my family. Imagine being glad your Dad, in my case, was no longer alive to know he had escaped and that the man who had hurt me was on the loose to do the same to another woman.

Its easy to say, they were children/too young/difunctional family etc but at the end of the day the sympathy should not be with the criminals but the forgotten victims - THE FAMILIES OF THE VICTIMS. Because they will never forget what their child/parent/sibling went through.

I doubt the changes are being forced on them, they could easily continue to live their lives as their former names or change them by deed poll or simply out themselves so I doubt that it's an infringment on their human rights as I'd imagine it's something they embrace.

outing themselves would be breaking the terms of their licence.

The new names were given to not only protect them from vigilante revenge, but to make their reintegration into society as least troublesome for all involved.

Who is to say they do not wish for forgiveness, and do not wish to make amends to society?

Offering themselves up to blood thirsty mobs achieves nothing.

Just a moment of blood lust satisfied. And the satisfaction of mob blood lust is not top of my list of a civilised societies objectives.

Trying to rehabilitate offenders is.

Jon Venables is on his second new identity for that exact reason he did out himself. resulting in him being moved and given a new identity. Now because he has had his license revoked due to breaking the conditions he could be given a new identity yet again...has anyone got any idea just how much this has cost. an estimated cost of up to £250,000.

MadameDeFarge - this is only speculation, but is not the first conditions of rehabilitation to apologise for your crime? I don't know that they haven't for certain, but Brady was never allowed out because he does not show any remorse. Hindley did and that was the reason her supporters gave for campaigning for her freedom.

As far as I am aware, the boys have never apologised (an apology, whether accepted or not, is usually asked to be made to the families of the victim).

Also, my outlining their human rights was in response to those who say that they should be allowed their freedom in line with human rights. What freedom is it when you have to live a lie?

And whilst you may think that punishment enough for them - is it fair to punish future girlfriends/wives by not telling them the boys true identities? If the boys go off the rails in trying to live this lie, as Venables appears to have done, is it right to allow others to suffer the consequences?

What about the rights of the abused children whose pictures he was leering at? What about the rights of the victims involved in the violent incidences?

It seems the law is going out of its way to protect these boys, whilst ignoring the rights of ordinary, law-abiding citizens as well as its most vulnerable children.

Again I ask, if Venables was under close watch, how come he was able to access such pornographic sites? Or get into violent altercations? Or abuse drugs? The fact that has had committed further crimes shows that the justice system is NOT working in this case, because there are now more victims of Venables.

Have neither the time or effort to go through all the names you mention ( I will tho)

Here's Johhny Vaughn.
In 1988, aged 21, Vaughan was arrested for trying to sell £15,000 of cocaine to undercover police officers in a hotel on the M1 motorway near Northampton.[8] He was found guilty of being "concerned with the supply" of class A drugs (namely cocaine) and sentenced to 4 years in Stocken Prison, of which he served 25 months (2 years and a month).[4][6]

Not really torture and murder or a toddler at the age of 10 is it?

well, he is clearly a very fucked up person. but £250K against his certain execution is a price we way for having a justice system.

So out of the two, at the moment we can say that the rehabilitation effort has been 50% successful. Which mirrors the stats.

One person isn't functioning. The other is. Got to be better than two people consigned to the scrap heap aged 10.

But there are now more victims of Venables, I would count that as a failure, wouldn't you?

harimos, you asked for examples of people convicted of offences who had gone on to be useful members of society.

If you meant purely murderers, do take a look at Irwin James, as previously suggested.

But I still take issue with the fact you seem to think that because they were ten years old it makes them more culpable than an adult....surely it makes them less culpable? lack of maturity, abusive backgrounds, no exposure to "decent" standards and morality. An adult will have had all of that, yet it is adults who kill children in our society on the whole, not children.

So when a child kills its is extremely unusual. But it doesn't make them more monstrous than the adult killers.

Add message | Report | Contact poster By MadameDefarge Mon 15-Mar-10 16:01:21
well, he is clearly a very fucked up person. but £250K against his certain execution is a price we way for having a justice system.

£250k x 3 well actually 4 if you include thompson in the sum.

well, we still don't know what his offense was, do we?

If rehabilitation efforts have not worked, it does not invalidate the concept of trying to rehabilitate offenders. It simply shows that it is not 100% effective. But it is effective in 50% of cases. Which is better than 0% effective. And as we can't keep them all in prison forever, we do have to try to rehabilitate.

TLES, if you count the cost of keeping them both in prison for the rest of their natural lives, £250K is a drop in the ocean.

I think that, that they were capable of this crime at 10YO.... yes... that says something.

Children are innocent.

Adults are not. That a child is capable of such extreme violent............

I've been accused of mixing dogs and kids up.... but here's another. If an older dog was agressive to a child, you might put it down to age... but a puppy...... nah..... you would see it as a sign of a bad dog.

Well. In my eyes, it's the same with humans. I don't think we are so far removed from animals.

harimosmummy

I posted that one as a half jokey follow on from the Jeffery Archer postings.

Why don't you pick on the ones quoted that were murderers. Or did you cherry pick mine to make a point?

MadameDefarge - if an adult had abducted a little boy, tortured him for hours before horrifically killing him, that adult would never be allowed out.

It was a horrific crime even by adult standards. The fact that it was perpetrated by children only serves to make it more horrific.

I have to wonder if they are capable of that at the age of 10, what are they capable of at the age of 20? Or 30?

If Venables was looking at hard core child pornography then his rehabiliation obviously has not worked and he remains a danger to children.

No sorry - Just picked a name at random.

I will go through the rest - I'm happy to say I'm wrong. Really I am.

I doubt there are any 10YO murderers in there tho.

The average cost of keeking someone in prison for a year is £38,753 means if you keep them in prison for 70 years each the total cost would be over £5 million .

Forget how much it costs. I would pay that to ensure that a child killer who gets their kicks from looking at images of children being abused is never released into society.

There are already new victims of Venables, are we really going to release him to create more?

How much does it cost to rehabilitate a victim?

Good point herbietea - no Denise Fergus has had no such protection. She will be forever linked to the horrific murder of her son. That is the life sentence she has to deal with.

Please don't misunderstand me Rhubarb, if, as an adult, he had indeed committed the crimes ascribed to him by the press, then absolutely, he needs either go to trial, or if he has admitted it, be sentenced and serve his time. And it would be quetionable whether in those circumstances he would ever get out again.

No question about that at all.

'There are already new victims of Venables, are we really going to release him to create more?'

Is that rumour now fact then?

Well, I do agree with TLES that the victims of crime need more protection.

I have myself been the victim of crime and quite frankly the lack of support (let alone letting the fucker off with a caution) almost destroyed me. But if the individuals in question has been convicted and served their time, I would have been satisfied.

So I do know what its like.

"you cannot lock people up because they MIGHT reoffend"

Of course you can. It is not unusual for someone to be institutionalized for the safety of society at large.

I say we dust off and nuke the site from orbit.

It's the only way to be sure.

eh? Right thread, ooja?