To hate the whole 'Naughty Chair' method

[TheLeftFelanji]

My friend uses this for her child (4). It just doesn't seem to work and the whole thing is so chaotic! She calls him 'naughty' ALL the time and drags him and threatens him all day. Do you want to sit on the Naughty Chair????!!! Ok, THAT'S IT!!! get on the Naughty chair!!!!!!

I am starting to feel really tense before I go round, it's a battleground. Can someone please explain if this works and how it's supposed to work and if you use this method? ....without me reading having to read a ton of toddler handbooks.

Much appreciated xx

agree with you there morloth, on the never make a threat and not follow through, they will soon learn to play you if you do that.

we have the look and the tone of voice in our house the boys know when they have overstepped the line and they will have time out and other consequences such as removal of toys, treats etc if necessary. they also get the 'talk' so they know we are disappointed with their behaviour.

interestingly at my ds's school which the elder three attend they have a red card scheme like football cards, that works well and ds2's teacher also has two lists on her white board, one on one side for the 'naughty' children and one on the other for those who have made 'right choices' it works VERY well, esp for ds2 who can be a handful, he KNOWS i will check everyday if he is on the naughty list and talk to his teacher etc and that there will be consequences to his behaviour at school. his teacher is pleased that i talk to her and back her up if he has been cheeky, or generally just a bit too boisterous etc, she knows she can say to him that if he continues acting out that she will talk to me at the end of the day and there will be consequences and it does make him behave.

i am not talking about smaking him etc, dont do that, but he knows that he will loose time on his ds, or miss out on an after school club etc, they do need boundaries.

i am not overly strict at all, with four boys my house is loud, busy and boisterous, i allow for boys to be boys, but they must know how to behave, especially in school and have respect for people etc ie ds2 was cheeky to a dinner lady, i heard about it via his teacher, he was punished at school, missed some of breaktime but i also made him write a letter of apology at home to take and give to the dinner lady, i think that is only right

Piglet, if you read my posts carefully, I've been arguing for consequences all along. But not the sort that you are advocating.

If a toddler is too young to reason with, the naughty chair is no good. You just repeat no and remove them from the situation.

I'm still waiting for the evidence that Supernanny's methods are based on.

I'm also quite disturbed that a teacher seems to not have any grasp on basic theories of psychology or child development but this thread has all gone a bit mad and shouty now.

Please please read some books as suggested on unconditional or positive parenting. Child-centred education like Montessori also has some very good theories.

FWIW, my children have never been violent, tantrums have never been acceptable in this house and they are polite and friendly kids. My middle child has some SN too but even so, responds to quiet time and discussion. I'm not saying this to show you how perfect I am. I've had a lot of struggles and probably got plenty to come. But I find treating children with respect makes them act more responsibly and makes them treat you with respect in return.

I do object to being lumped in with parents who don't care or have never thought about parenting at all. There's a big difference between making a choice to parent in a positive way and just turfing your children out to hit each other with sticks all day.

pigletmania Sun 14-Mar-10 19:09:11
Carmen how on earth can you reason with a screaming toddler . There is nothing humiliating about a naughty step or corner in your own home where nobody else is there. Its not like you are parading your dcs around town with a sandwich board saying Ive been naughty today, I thew a tantrum as I could not get my own way'

OMG do you mean I have to bin the sandwich board now??

Supersmart mum didn't you start a thread the other week asking weather or not it was unreasonable to smack another persons child if they were missbehaving whilst with you?

Anyways back to the thread in hand I work with children with emotional and behavioural problems the boys I am with a 5 and personally I use quiet time when they have compleatly lost their self control, they sit in thir own area of the class and calm down. When they are calm we chat about why they have done x y or z and how we will put it right.

I NEVER use the word naughty as I believe that children are not naughty but that they display negative behaviour at times but negative behaviour is simply not acceptable.

I also teach ways to modify their behaviour so they do not go so quickly into a rage etc
I also distract where possible, and praise praise praise the good.

Carmen, I would not ascribe the fact that your children have never been violent simply to your parenting methods. Some children do have fiery tempers despire very sensitive parenting. Sometimes they are caused by factors we as parents have no control over, such as my dd's disability or my brother's adoption trauma or ds's friend's bereavement. Other children are just very highly strung (not always a bad thing, as long as they can learn to control it; ime it often goes hand in hand with strong willpower and creativity later in life).

The tantrumming children I have known have all grown up into successful well adjusted individuals. But telling them at age 2 that tantrums were not acceptable in their house would have been a complete waste of breath: it was a stage those particular children needed to work through.

If it was all about parenting, you would have to explain why I had several tantrums around the age of 2, my youngest brother had them until age 10 and my other two brothers never had any at all. My parents were calm child orientated people with a great deal of natural authority but very few punishments. I was a headstrong child who wanted to be in charge, my middle brother was a sunny little character who genuinely didn't mind being told what to do.

You count your blessings, Carmen. The rest of us will count our scars

Cory, I don't think it is all about parenting. Outcomes are a whole mix of things - environment, genetics, parenting, schooling etc. etc. But the parenting is perhaps the most controllable factor.

I only mention my own children because I object to the assertion that was made earlier that I'm 'pandering' to my children and making them into 'unpleasant' adults.

Still not convinced about tantrumming though. Many of the tantrums I've seen in children have usually followed a pattern of people winding each other up, escalating threats, removal of reward etc. You can see the tantrum about to happen and it could have been avoidable.

Nothing like that happened in our family, Carmen.

My brother would have certain days when he would go around riling everybody until somebody (usually a young sibling) answered back and gave him the excuse to throw himself into a fullblown kicking biting and screaming tantrum. You could predict it hours in advance. Nothing to do with threats or withdrawal of rewards. It was like he really needed the release of tension. On a non-trantrumming day he was completely laidback and easy-going.

I would have instant tantrums aged 2 whenever somebody voiced a different opinion to mine; I simply didn't think other people's opinions were worth hearing.

Dd had them when she was feeling physically low and worried about things that I had very little control over.

Neither my birth family nor dh and I are into the whole escalating threat thing. But we have had some fiery tempers and some anxiety problems.

Tbh I have learnt not to be afraid of tantrums. I don't think they're the worst thing that can happen: I think it is far worse for the child if the whole family walks around on eggshells to avoid disturbing the one with the fiery temper. Particularly hard on siblings, too. After a tantrum energy has been released and you can all cuddle and make up. Fear of tantrums leads to resentment.

Ooh, I don't like naughty step either, I usually tell dd to 'sit over there' (cross voice)

Samstown, I guess I have taught the complete opposite of your children. The ones who don't know where they are coming or going because their parents have yelled and threatened naughty steps til they are blue in face, wildly inappropriate to circumstance. Am v pro boundaries but don't agree that blindly giving punishment for minor issues is the way forward.

1yo/5yo/15yo the same IME.

1. distraction
2. positive instruction/slant
3. warning with immediate NATURAL consequence (eg if you hit me again, I will put you over there so you can't hit me)
4. follow through on consequence

I think the problem is when consequences are so far disconnected from the 'natural' consequence so kids don't really learn why they shouldn't do it only don't do it if you'll get caught...

The 'naughty step' as a technique misses the point IMO. Time out is useful but we are trying to teach kids what they SHOULD do not just 'don't do that'. Tbh I mainly don't do the punishment approach because it DOES NOT WORK. Putting names on a smiley side of the board when you are pleased with them MUCH more effective than writing names on a sad/'bad' side.

FWIW I would describe myself as a hippy, 'attachment parent type who disciplines out of natural consequences and positivity (and have lovely, sharing, caring kids btw ). Oh, and and teach in challenging schools in Inner London too so well experience in 'behaviour management'.

Cory, I agree. BE angry (without hurting anyone)) then find something to make you feel better. We were eggshells family too.

(hitting example for toddlers - obv the actual natural consequences change with age!)

can't help but laugh at some peoples opinions :-) We use naughty step at my house with visitors and if needed at close friends houses or family. I see it like this. If as Adults we do something unacceptable (break the law) we are punished told in a room full of people (courtroom) that we did something wrong and given the consequences (jail etc). So all I am doing is a smaller scale as the "crimes" are smaller. Its how soceity works.

Would you accept that the person who stole your car just got a private talking to from a policeman about how that is a naughty thing to do so please don't do it again. doubt it somehow!!

Hmmm, but sussiq - why don't YOU steal a car? Is it just because you are scared of being caught, or because you think it isn't the right thing to do - eg it's someone else's car and they will be sad if you do it, they will have to try to find a new one etc. Society should work on respect and community not just fear of punishment - otherwise there would be no crime at all what with the threat of jail!

(and people often DO get just a talking to/caution, if that is appropriate)

Unconditional parenting.....what an unholy crock of shit that one is.
And I say that with a very good understanding of child psychology and development theory.

I don't steal cars because I have one already :-)

My point is that as grownups we are punished why is it not ok to punish kids?

as grown-ups we go out to work.
as kids we play and learn the skills required to get to the above.

ditto.

I do believe in consequences for behaviour, just not arbitrary punishments that don't teach anything apart from 'don't get caught'.

Adair, great posts.

The adult justice system is as fucked up as the naughty step.

If it worked, you wouldn't have so many chronic reoffenders. If prisons didn't exist, we wouldn't all suddenly turn into burglars and murderers.

Runnybottom, please enlighten me to the development/psychology evidence behind the naughty step. I keep asking and no-one replies.

I have the naughty step in our house.

Combined with the 1 x warning rule it works a treat.

I was brought up with the 'bottom step' as a chilli out space when I was small (years and years before supernanny) it worked then for me.
Now I have a son and have used the 'time out' spot since he was about 20 months old and works great for us.
However it only works if the parent stays carm other wise it will become a 'naughty spot' for 'naughty children' and if the child has already been classed as being naughty why would there be any reason to not to be?

It is not to do with withdrawing love or being humiliated its about teachin what is right and wrong in a carm way with out aggression or negativity.

I understand it can be very hard if you are visting a house were it is used wrongly causing a 'battleground' atmophere but it can work well if used right. I do feel sorry for having to see that.

I think that comparing the behaviour of a toddler who is playing up, to the behaviour of an adult who is breaking the law is completely unhelpful. A tiresome toddler is not a criminal.

A much better comparison would be to compare how you react to a DP who has broken a house rule.
If your rule is that everyone puts their laundry in the basket and you come home to find that DP has left his draped around the floor, how do you respond to DP?
Hopefully you calmly point out the problem, remind them of the rule, say that it pisses you off to be running around clearing up his mess because it is unfair that you have to waste your time doing his job, and ask him to go and deal with it/not do it again. You handle the situation firmly but with respect for the other person.

What you wouldn't do is yell that your DP is a horrible thoughtless person, that he is always so messy and that you think he should go and sit in a corner until he's thought about what he's done. It really doesn't work like that, so why should we think it should be the prefered method for resolving problems with our children.

thats not what you are doing with a naughty step though, FFS, talk about MASSIVE assumptions.

You cannot talk to a toddler the way you talk to a grown adult. If you don't understand that it doesn't really matter what you are doing with your children.

No, you can't talk to a toddler the way you can an adult, because their understanding is not the same, and there is a power balance, whatever you believe, because the toddler is dependent on you as the adult to look after them and also teach them the ways of our society and culture. But as long as the end result is the same, I don't see why you can't reach that in a respectful manner.

I agree BertieBotts, it's about giving your child some respect. You may have to change the language and the way in which you present your argument so that it is age appropriate, but it can still be done with respect for your child as another person (who will also been learning important lessons about how treat other people).

runnybottom "Unconditional parenting.....what an unholy crock of shit that one is.
And I say that with a very good understanding of child psychology and development theory. "

That's a pretty unhelpful statement. I also have a pretty good understanding of child psychology and development theory. But I'm more than prepared to listen to your reasoning about why it's a 'crock of shit'. Would you like to post some back-up for that? Then there can be a more reasoned discussion about it.

But you see, I use the bold corner, so apparently I am incapable of reasoning or explaining anything. The two are apparently mutually exclusive, and I don't have the time to debate as I should be working hard to save for my childrens future in depth therapy bills, what with destroying their futures with a bit of discipline.

Where has anyone said that? I certainly haven't.