To be pissed off that people who are not academic are branded as thick!

[teamcullen]

Why is it that people/children who are not academically clever are constantly branded as Thick, stupid or the underclass of society.

A person can leave school at 16 with little qualifications and work every day of their lives in McDonalds or a shop or as a labourer. They pay taxes. They contribute to society. Yet people constantly make comments on how you must be thick to work in those proffessions.

There are options in schools for children to take vocational courses, but I am always seeing comments like "No way Id let my DC take a deploma or vocational course." Or those subjects are only for the thick kids!

I understand that if a child is likely to go to uni, they need to take the traditinal route of GCSEs and A levels, but the world ecomony would quickly cease if everybody took this route.

Just because somebody is not academic, does not constitute being thick. Creative skills, patience, common sence, empathy and listening skills to name just a few are things that may not come naturatly to those with letters after their name, but are needed in many proffessions.

If a child who is not academic goes into the world at 16 and works hard in a job which needs no or little qualifications is it not unreasonable to treat tham and their proffession with a bit of respect.

Agree with the devalued manual work.

hands up here who knows what to do if the washing machine breaks?

Or if the stair carpet comes off?

Or if the plaster falls down?

I do a 'pink collar' job, so kind of not manual OR particularly academic, but destined to be foreveer low paid.

wouldn't call work such as plumbers, builders, roofers, electricians thick personally.

maybe only on here is it acceptable.

my uncle is a builder and he earns fantastic money.

unfortunately we do not seem to offer apprenticeships that we once did, this needs to change.

Work shouldn't have to be shit though! Sure there are some jobs that are probably more "unpleasant" than others. There are certainly plenty of jobs that I wouldn't chose to do. That doesn't mean that you shouldn't be paid a decent wage for doing them and be treated with respect by your employers (and your peers for that matter).

To me there is no shame in cleaning, or working in a care home, or collecting rubbish. These jobs have to be done and the people who do them are providing a valuable service to society. However "we" are saying that these are "shit" jobs and we don't want "our" children doing them. Our children, it would seem, would rather be unemployed in many cases, so the market, and the perceived value of the jobs gets driven lower as people come from elsewhere to do them to do them for less.

We need to put the "pride" back by valuing these jobs and paying appropriate wages for them. God, if I ever end up in a care home, I would want to be looked after by someone who cared about their work, and therefore me.

IMO IQ tests are ver narrow and do not test different types of intelligence. I personally would score very low on a traditional IQ test and would probably be classed as being how can i put it retarded. However I have done a GNVQ advanced, got good grades in my BA and MSc, if i was so bad i would not be able to do them. Also other posters on here like littledragon too have similar experiences.

OP, you are totally right. I haven't read the thread but this issue really pisses me off. DH and I have PhDs and we both work in academia. My family are in no way academic, all left school young, and yet are some of the brightest, sharpest, wittiest people I have ever met. They are a boon to society with all their skills and ideas. They are far too modest and think they aren't as good as me and DH. My brother often hears 'yeah but your sister's the clever one'. Fuck that! DH and I wholeheartedly admit that my family has a more rounded knowledge and common sense than either of us. Sometimes the academic bubble really shuts you away from REAL life knowledge and capability. That's far more useful to our society that 100,000 theses that perhaps no one will read, I admit! My family is the most loving, well-rounded bunch of people who don't believe in themselves enough because they believe the hype that 'academic = genius'. It's a specific ability and sometimes I'd prefer to be more useful to society!

Meanwhile, my PIL are academic snobs. They refer to us by our titles (Dr. and Prof.) when talking to us in public and talk mumbo-jumbo constantly thinking that we care. They treat us as if our PhDs are us. When you're hungover and you want family chat, they start deep philosophical discussions and try to 'out do' us. It's just nasty. These two failed their degrees so it's particularly annoying that they won't drop it. Get this! My FIL refers to a well-known university as his alma mater. He never studied there. As a retired gentleman, he was the janitor there. Sums it up - snobbery attached to academia is utter bullshit! I'd much rather be like my family.

I think you're the own coming across as nasty there, Vivia. Sounds like they have an inferiority complex and are very proud of you both. Whereas as you are looking down on him for considering himself to be part of the university he cleaned.

I'm sure you don't mean it that way but you can see how things can seem different to others.

Runny, I understand your point. My point was that he wouldn't admit to being the janitor - nothing wrong with the job! Why did it have to be a lie about 'alma mater' and not 'where I worked as a janitor'? You see what I mean? I did word it terribly.

The PILs are certainly not proud of us as my epic threads about them have shown!

Hope I'm making more sense now.

Can't say I've met many/any people who think non-academic people are 'thick'. You can be proud of hard work tho. If you worked hard for a degree, great. If you worked hard from 16 to provide for yourself/family, great.
Hard work is what we should value.

It's perfectly fair to value a job as really bloody hard work, and admire those who do it, and still not want your children to do it.

Binman = hard, dirty labour, having to work at speed in all weathers with very little job satisfaction (people only notice you when you DON'T get it right). I admire those who can stick at it though the weather, the maggots, the sleet, the broiling summer, and still stay cheerful.

I don't want my children to do that job because I don't ever want them to have to work so hard to make a living. If it's what they choose and they are happy, then I will be happy, but I don't know many binmen (and I do know a few)who wouldn't rather be doing something easier and better paid.

purplepeony, yes, I've got a spiky profile. I just think it's a good example of how difficult it is to quantify/judge 'intelligence'. I met a lot of people at university who'd been pushed into doing things like sitting the MENSA exam at age 8, re-sitting A-level modules to bump up their A into a better A - all very much so that their parents could say, 'oh, yes, my son has an IQ of 150 and scored 599 out of 600 in his A level maths' ... it's just numbers. Much better imo to accept that most of us have strengths and weaknesses, and to play to the strengths.

I think part of the problem is that we live in a very wealthy country with the added problem of being a small island where land is at a premium.

Plus the world is fast changing, probably more than any of us can keep up with.

We can all see that our children will need to be far more shit hot than we ever were, to make a good living/own their home/save for a pension etc.

Working for low pay will not provide our DCs with freedom. We can see they might never afford a home and with social housing almost non-existant what then?

So we look for ways in which our DCs can get ahead,find emplyment which will provide freedom, and the answer at this juncture seems to be more and more education and qualifications.
I'm not saying this is right or even wise. but it is understandable.

teamcullen don't worry the fact that you can hardly string a sentence together and yet have a degree says more about them than you.

I've never called people thick simply because they work in an unskilled job or whatever, and I haven't heard anybody do this on here, I think it's the usual over sensitivity.

Some people are much less bright than others though, and ignorance is never a good thing.

I think it's great to strive for your kids to be well educated and well rounded - if only for their own mental well being. I know lots of people who simply can't be alone as they have no inner resources with which to entertain themselves. But I'm never bored or lonely, I have a passion for reading etc and enjoy my own thoughts and company.

You can't overvalue it.

LeQueen, that's a bit of a generalisation surely? I used to work for a pharma co. and know many very highly educated people, research scientists with PhDs many of them. But they are "geeks" generally. Lovely, adorable, funny people, but they could no more discuss Chaucer, or Fiscal policy than I could would want to!

They all liked beer though! Can't think of single exception.

I have never understood why people look down on teaching as a career as an application of academic ability. After all...teachers are the people who nurture that quality in others and we hand our children over to during their formative years. How can that be lkooked down on as a career choice? Bizarre.

you sound like such a social charmer le queen

I've never heard anything but respect for teachers on MN, even the bad ones turn up every day and stand before a class of teenagers/children which is more than I'd be prepared to do.

MrsC, I never understand why people look down on plumbers either. Your life depends on the people who install your boiler/central heating knowing what they are doing! They have to be registered and take regular training courses to maintain that registration.

Of course we all want the best for our children, but the reality is takes all sorts to make a cohesive society and we can't all work in an office/school/laboratory etc. Otherwise we end up in a situation, say like Duhbai, where everyone lives in their ivory towers, and the real "workers" live in a ghetto and just come during the day to provide the essential services. That would be much nicer!

Oh no, I don't mean the people on here Milly, I mean the posts on here about people who have had others look down on their friends/children etc for choosing teaching or childcare etc.

LeQueen, I do know many people who are able to do all of the things that you describe without a degree or further education. Personally, I have one, as does everyone I know/am friends with...but they certainly don't have the monopoly on those particular skills. I agree with you in many respects on many of the topics that have been bandied around on these boards, but do find that particular post a little superior and highly generalised.

You don't need to be very academic to be a teacher. Some teachers are very academic and some are not. What you do need are excellent social skills.

LeQueen, you could find academics like that too. My brother is a mathematician, and you would be better able to discuss, say, a Shakespeare play with your average 13 year old than with him.