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Original poster

To be pissed off that people who are not academic are branded as thick!

285 replies

teamcullen · 08/03/2010 21:18

Why is it that people/children who are not academically clever are constantly branded as Thick, stupid or the underclass of society.

A person can leave school at 16 with little qualifications and work every day of their lives in McDonalds or a shop or as a labourer. They pay taxes. They contribute to society. Yet people constantly make comments on how you must be thick to work in those proffessions.

There are options in schools for children to take vocational courses, but I am always seeing comments like "No way Id let my DC take a deploma or vocational course." Or those subjects are only for the thick kids!

I understand that if a child is likely to go to uni, they need to take the traditinal route of GCSEs and A levels, but the world ecomony would quickly cease if everybody took this route.

Just because somebody is not academic, does not constitute being thick. Creative skills, patience, common sence, empathy and listening skills to name just a few are things that may not come naturatly to those with letters after their name, but are needed in many proffessions.

If a child who is not academic goes into the world at 16 and works hard in a job which needs no or little qualifications is it not unreasonable to treat tham and their proffession with a bit of respect.

OP posts:
Original poster
teamcullen · 08/03/2010 22:20

Runnybottom did you pick that name because you talk shit?

I actually said if you are going to go to uni, you need to follow the traditional route.

I value education as high as the next person.I went back to college and uni myself as an adult to follow the career I wanted.

I have 3DCs. The first is very bright, has just picked her options and is following the traditional route.

DS on the other hand, dispite having exactly the same opertunities as DD, does not have the same acidemic inteligence, therefore he has very little chance that he will go to uni, become a doctor, study law etc. I am not trying to be an invert snob, Im being realistic and letting my DS know that being a builder or shop worker or childcare worker are perfectly good jobs to do, even if they are not well paid and life expectancy is not as high for these proffessions!

OP posts:
MillyMollyMoo · 08/03/2010 22:22

I'm not even sure it's about intelligence more drive, I have never passed with an A, I doubt I'd get offered my original university place these days all things being equal, but I have worked very very hard over the years.

I know I have an above average IQ but I also know there are brighter sparks than me working as labourer's and trades, rarely McDonalds though.

JaneS · 08/03/2010 22:22

Intelligence is not a synonym for academia. People don't seem to understand this.

I am quite unintelligent as regards IQ, but I'm pretty sure that my academic work is strong.

Similarly, one can be unacademic, and very intelligent.

This should not be a difficult concept to grasp.

MillyR · 08/03/2010 22:22

There seems to be a lot of people on this thread saying how we should value people who aren't academic (i.e. don't get their GCSEs). Surely if we valued the non-academic jobs we would be suggesting them as options to the people who do get their GCSEs. Many people who go to University might have been more fulfilled as plumbers, electricians or bus drivers.

drloves8 · 08/03/2010 22:24

why is the life expectancy not as high? is it because the people who traditionally do these jobs are less educated , so more likely to make bad choices about diet , drink, drugs ect?
Or because those with better paid occupations can afford private health care?.

MillyMollyMoo · 08/03/2010 22:25

I also have three DC's, the first is very bright and will sail through life and the second is around a year behind her peers but that doesn't mean I will sit back whilst she becomes a builder, shop worker or childcare worker, it means we will have to support her and help her to achieve her dreams which are no less valid or achievable than her older sisters.

Joolyjoolyjoo · 08/03/2010 22:27

I honestly think there is FAR too much stress placed on academic intelligence these days. The Government seems to want everyone to go out and get a degree, which has been a disaster for graduates as there are now far too many, while plumbers etc are making a fortune because they are in short supply.

My field (vet) has many very academically intelligent people in it,but many of them are unable to cope with the job itself, at it also involves people and communication skills, and you spend your life cutting toe-nails and emptying dogs anal glands, which you really don't NEED 5 A's at A-level to do!

I think my kids are pretty smart, but unless they want to do something that they NEED a university education to do, I won't be encouraging down that route. I know people (eg, my DH!) who left school at 16 with no qualifications to speak of and earn more than I do. I also have a shocking general knowledge, which for some reason surprises people as I am "meant to be smart"!

runnybottom · 08/03/2010 22:28

Bit rude teamcullen, don't you think?

How am I talking shit? Education is a good thing. You agree with me.
Whats your problem?

Oh and drloves, if you have a degree and there are no jobs, you won't get a job. When there are jobs, you are in a better position with a degree.

pointylog · 08/03/2010 22:29

I haven't noticed anyone being branded as thick on mn. I haven't noticed anyone who has left school at 16 being treated disrespectfully just because of this fact.

I do not believe there are different types of intelligences. I think that is some meaningless pseudo-science.

I have found that schools seem to be taking a very definite anti-academic turn. I have found sports and extra-curricular activities to be lauded at the dds' school while academic achievements to be barely commented upon.

OrmRenewed · 08/03/2010 22:30

Some people are intelligent, some people aren't. Some people are rich and succesful, some people arent. Some people are beautiful, some people are not. So what? As long as you don't make stupid judgements about them as a result.

drloves8 · 08/03/2010 22:31

im totally confudded millymollymoo.
do you like my word confudded? i invented it just for you ,

OrmRenewed · 08/03/2010 22:32

"I have found that schools seem to be taking a very definite anti-academic turn" Yes. God yes. Non-academic is the new black

janeiteisFedUp · 08/03/2010 22:33

Careful Orm - don't let the education dept see this. They'll have teachers judged on how beautiful their pupils are, before we know it!

pointylog · 08/03/2010 22:33

I think everyone, by and large, has the potential to increase their intelligence. I don't think there's really such a thing as 'you;'re intelligent and you aren't'.

drloves8 · 08/03/2010 22:35

Runnybottom ......DUH !
the job market is getting so crazy that in a few years , having a degree -will- -be- -essential- for stacking selves in tescos.

pointylog · 08/03/2010 22:35

lol @ the ne wblack

MillyMollyMoo · 08/03/2010 22:35

What's confuddled you Drlove8 ?

CrowAndAlice · 08/03/2010 22:37

It works both ways. I know plenty of folks who bitched about me as a none academic (useless, never make money etc.) but i am good with my hands - and plenty who bitched about DSis who is highly intelligent. You can't win.....

tootootired · 08/03/2010 22:38

"That doesn't mean I will sit back whilst she becomes a builder, shop worker or childcare worker"

Well that's just the problem. Nobody sees any future in a low paid/vocational job - whereas actually most people who run their own businesses/building companies/nurseries/shops started out at the bottom. Now kids are told they have to get a degree in Nursery Management, drink beer for 3 years and walk into a job. The thought of working your way into the job you want to do (or discovering it as you go along) isn't an option any more - too much like dirty/hard work I suppose.

To be honest any snobbery I had about my degree saving me from serving food/cleaning toilets/sweeping up rubbish disappeared when I became a parent - so what have I achieved anyway?

drloves8 · 08/03/2010 22:38

runny has confuddled me , .im confuddled.com now !

JaneS · 08/03/2010 22:39

pointylog, why do you think there aren't types of intelligence?

I'm a bit confused, because even a very blunt, faulty and basic test of intelligence like the IQ tests (Weschler et al) do acknowledge that there are different aspects of intelligence. I've never heard this theory that there is only one kind of intelligence. I'm assuming it's very recent research? I'd love to have the reference - something that refutes the last 100 years would be absolutely fascinating to read.

squilly · 08/03/2010 22:41

Has this arisen as the result of another thread about careworkers? Where all childminding/nursery staff were branded as thick by the OP followed by lots of people saying, that's rude. But that was followed by a number of people saying that they wouldn't be happy if their dd/ds came home saying they wanted to do a diploma in childcare or anything similar....

I may be wrong, it might be a corincidink, but I suspect that's where the OP's coming from. So some people have been branded as thick on MN on this very night, leading to a long and slightly combative thread.

IMO academia and intelligence are completely different and both are separate from common sense. You can have an academic intelligence and common sense or one separate from the other. So it's silly to make judgements of a person and their worth based on the level of their education or the number of qualifications they have.

Having said that, how many of us are desperate keen for our kids to do well at school? It just shows how conformist we all tend to be...that we want our kids to have it all.

MillyMollyMoo · 08/03/2010 22:41

Tootootired, my worry is that those days are over.
I have two brothers in their 20's and just 10 years ago they would have started at the bottom in an organisation, gained skills and worked their way up.
Now you cannot even get a foot through the door with a degree, it is expected you will be a graduate and still work for £6 an hour or even for free.

purplepeony · 08/03/2010 22:41

why is the life expectancy not as high? is it because the people who traditionally do these jobs are less educated , so more likely to make bad choices about diet , drink, drugs ect?
Or because those with better paid occupations can afford private health care?.

The former in most cases.

OP says Yet people constantly make comments on how you must be thick to work in those proffessions.

Do they? You come across as having a chip on your shoulder. Your language is certainly very emotive and inflammatory.

I don't recognise what you say- people's intelligence varies and so does the work they do. Some very intelligent people do work below their capabilites out of choice.

And to be blunt, yes, some people are just "thick" - and do the only kind of work that they are capable of doing.

runnybottom · 08/03/2010 22:44

There are at least 11 different types of intelligence according to the leader in the field. Look up Howard Gardiner and Multiple Intelligences if you want to know more, its really interesting stuff.