Porn

[Bubbles01]

Am I being unreasonable for getting upset that my husband keeps looking at porn?

I don't think it's being suggested that it's the source or repository of all sexism or that getting rid of it would magically take care of all that women are up against. What's being argued is that it's an unabashed expression of misogyny, which is one of the bulwarks of the current order.

YABU.

Solidgoldbrass, very nicely put! I salute you

Just wanted to say I have really enjoyed reading this thread (in that I have learnt a lot, obviously the subject matter is a bit horrific) and have read it all in one sitting in between arguing with DH over it. I was trying to give him my poorly articulated views and all he could keep saying is that some women probably do enjoy being porn stars, and it isn't all exploitative, and I was trying to arguing that didn't change my position on porn as a whole.

FWIW as a woman of late 20s I grew up with the mentality that to be a woman who enjoyed porn made you sexually liberated, and at uni I would borrow porn from the blokes and watch it with girl friends. What a load of bollocks, this thread has made me realise, if I can't articulate anything else, I don't need to watch porn to be sexually liberated. No one else knows what goes on in my bedroom, and that's the way I would like it to stay.

I think of the years I wasted working in male dominated environments where I always felt I had to 'hold my own' by indulging in the puerile sexual exploits of the men there. I am not proud of the way I often behaved and it is only in the last few years I have had the confidence to be myself and have realised that acting in the way that I did did not gain me any respect (in a real sense of the word). I have only recently come to understand what feminism is about, and sleeping with random men to make myself feel wanted is not being a feminist and liberated it is the opposite.

Anyway, DH eventually came around to my way of thinking this morning. It's not that he agrees with porn, I think he was just playing devil's advocate. A while back we had a very big argument as he said he wouldn't want DD growing up as a feminist. Until I explained to him exactly what feminism is. I can't blame him, I too grew up thinking feminism was so passe and a dirty word. The problem is that I am not well read enough on the matter to be able to articulate my fledgling views.

Oh, and I am another one who's husband doesn't watch porn. Obviously I can't be 100% sure he doesn't but he says he doesn't and I believe him, we have grown up discussions about it (between the arguments where I convince him I am right!). And he finds the whole communal porn watching, all men doing it together, rather disturbing.

Thanks for the interesting discussion anyway, sorry I came too late to add anything to it.

Actually I have one more point. It really bugs me when people try and support an idea, people opposing it start to say 'well, don't you care about the babies in Africa/flying longhaul/Indian sweatshops?' as if that proves their point. You can't take on every cause, it doesn't make you a hypocrite, far better those who stand up for something than those who stand up for nothing.

That's my 2p worth anyway.

Great post Bumperlicious.

Well my main point is that it's important not to follow the 'ban porn' line to the extent that you hook up with the other ban-porn people who are obsessed with stopping people having, enjoying or talking about sex. Because a culture where sex is forbidden and dirty and can't be mentioned is IMO a much worse one to live in than one where there is a lot of imagery that some people find distasteful. The answer to moronic sexist porn is to make more good porn, produce and promote more sexually explicit entertainment material that doesn't involve the exploitation or mistreatment of performer,s that celebrates enjoyable sex and explores all the different aspects of it, etc.

I don't think this has been a thread about whether or not we should ban pornography.

It is a thread about whether or not we should allow pornography to become part of our sex lives, either by viewing porn ourselves and/or by having sex with people who view pornography.

I am not convinced it would even be possible to ban pornography. I want pornography (and things like Nuts, lap dancing posters) removed from public places because I think they should be in adult places only, but the banning of pornography is an entirely separate issue.

You can be opposed to something being part of your life without seeking to ban it.

I really wanted to read the whole thread but im too tired! to OP YANBU

I cannot believe people think that the answer is to watch it with him, ffs she has said she doesnt like him watching porn how does that help?

Also i really hate porn, and cannot stand the thought of my hubby watching it but i dont have self esteem issues.

I don't know how many people there are out there who are trying to stop others from having, enjoying or talking about sex. Abstinence-only sex educators are the closest thing perhaps? I think there's a happy medium between a place where sex is forbidden and dirty and can't be mentioned (where? Afghanistan? Ireland in the 50s 70s?) and the one we have now, and I don't think it necessarily involves better-quality, non-exploitative porn (something like organic green porn?). The idea that porn should somehow be accepted and normalised is the problem.

Just want to say thank you for this thread.

My DH does have a liking for pornography, and it has always made me feel uncomfortable... but I haven't been able to articulate my feelings about it clearly enough to argue with him that he shouldn't watch it. I actually feel slightly ashamed about that now, as I realise it is tied up with not wanting to be labelled or judged for not being 'open minded' enough to tolerate it.

Tonight, I have had the conversation with him, using much of your evidence and thinking on here, and talking to him seriously about how we can raise our two daughters in an increasingly pornographic culture... when he has a completely different set of values for himself. It wasn't an easy discussion - he got irritated by the fact I had been 'influenced by mumsnet on this issue' - I told him not to be so patronising... and to look at the evidence.

So, the upshot is that he has agreed to do some reading into the issue (belive me, this is progress) - so where should i direct him? I am wary of sending him to obviously feminist articles/literature, as he will say this is a skewed viewpoint (I know.. I know, but I have to start somewhere). Dittany, Milly... and other well read posters on this thread.. any suggestions to help me educate my DH as you have educated me?

And please, no judging of DH for watching pornography... I don't disagree with much of what you have said about men who do, but I just don't think he knows, or has even thought about it too much. This is what I want to change. If he still chooses to watch it after knowing... then I'll have a bigger problem in my marriage I think.

Well done lurkingsnurker. My DH is fairly open minded but even the mention of MN can often get his back up...

Dare I direct you to this thread? Ignore the insult trading and just check out the links

Well another site you could look at is Feminists Against Censorship.

The other thing that always happens in this kind of discussion is that everyone is arguing about 'porn' and using their own perceptions of what the word means, with no agreed definition. IE a lot of people use 'porn' to describe 'stuff which offends them personally' whereas some people mean 'any kind of sexually explicit vidual material that's for entertainment rather than education', and others only use the word 'porn' to describe stuff which either is illegal or they think should be illegal.

Are most people drawing a line between 'porn' and 'erotica', BTW?

I think posters on this thread are able to draw a line between porn and erotica, SGB. It's a fine line, and there is room for personal taste involved, but I think there's a general assumption on what kind of material is being discussed here.

There are many similarities between porn and propaganda, imo. Women in porn (and men too, to a certain extent) are generally rather grotesque, caricaturish female types. Their appeal is purely visual and their physical characteristics are emphasised while every other aspect of a person that normally goes into a balanced three-dimensional portrayal is omitted. There's definitely a POV about women being expressed through this kind of portrayal; even without the sexual activity a portrayal of a person with only one dimension conveys a message about that person's otherness, separateness, and status in relation to the viewer or the 'hero' of the narrative. Here's an idea of caricature in propaganda -- an exercise in contrasts with a clear message. It's as crude as the Sheela na gig carvings, but we get the message, right?
Essay by Fritz Hippler from the 1930s on the usefulness of film as a propaganda weapon. He sums up the power of the visual image in the first paragraph. Quote: "We know that the impact of a message is greater if it is less abstract, more visual." (He went on the make the execrable film 'The Eternal Jew'.)

Mathanxiety: Women in some porn are 'grotesque, caricaturish' - I have seen plenty of porn featuring averagely attractive individuals, male and female (think Hollyoaks cast - OK not the whole diversity of humankind but not grotesque either).
And as to the characters in porn not being balanced three-dimensional portrayals, you could say that about practically every kind of escapist entertainment (Bella in Twilight, for instance, mm, there's a well-described, psychologically insightful feminist role model...).

But I don't think there is a universally-agreed dividing line - some people think that stuff with words is fine but stuff with pictures featuring actual human beings is always wrong, etc... most people stick to thinking that what they like is erotica and what other people like is porn.

I'm not talking about levels of attractiveness; it's what's emphasised as the salient points of the individuals in porn that makes for the caricaturish nature -- a caricature always emphasises one aspect of a person at the expense of another, and in that it is grotesque. A grotesque portrayal is a distortion, not necessarily ugly or unattractive; a deliberate distortion is done with the intention of expressing a pov. The one-dimensional portrayal of women in porn has a message about women for viewers.

I have managed to avoid the whole Twilight thing, so can't comment on Bella or anyone else from the series. Literary characters' functions in a story are myriad, but in general they are not there solely to facilitate wanking, or even to be feminist role models.

I'm only me, so can't comment about what most people see as the difference between their taste and that of others, or even if your assertion about most people's assessment of that difference could be factual.

This is all really interesting.
I'm both impressed and amazed at some of the arguments particularly about what constitutes porn and how you define it.
In my blinkered, narrow thinking it's perfectly bloody obvious what the op is talking about and I happen to feel exactly the same way.
I don't believe I have self esteem issues. I do consider myself well read. And I do believe I am a feminist.
I don't believe that any of this means that my personal emotional gut response to feeling it is damaging to a relationship means that I am not any of the things I believe that I am.

Some porn popped up on dp's computer last week when he was trying to show me something else and I went into meltdown.
Yes I'm intelligent enough to try to analyse my (extreme) response and is it about me ? (blah blah)
We argued/talked for hours, I cried, he got infuriated.

Isn't that enough for anyone's dp/dh to rethink their actions?

Maybe old Potter Stewart (US Supreme Court Justice) was onto something when he said "I know it when I see it" about porn and how to define it, for the purposes of a ruling. I don't think anyone needs to apologise or feel there's something wrong with them when confronted with something that can evoke a gut response like porn can, from discomfort to being aghast to being physically ill and feeling your mind has been raped.

Sad your DP reacted the way he did. Hope it will be resolved. Maybe it came from guilt? Embarrassment that he was found out? The double whammy of deceit and porn use is hard to deal with. So mnay lines have been crossed.

MathANxiety_ no, Potter Stewart was demonstrating that he, as a white (presumably) heterosexual educated male would make one subjective interpretation of an image and (as is often the way with straight white men) calling that an objective definition - the 'objective' viewpoint on anything is usually the straight-boy-whitey viewpoint.

ANd as to the fact that porn concentrates on one aspect of a person's behaviour (having sex) rather than giving us an insightful portrait into their character, isn't necessarily a bad thing - other forms of mainstream entertainment media which are designed to provoke a particular reaction are just as sketchy when it comes to characterisation, whether that's horror films (everyone's cannon fodder) or the sort of 'action movie' where what you've gone to see is the explosions and car chases. Creating media to excite people sexually is no more morally reprehensible than creating media to make them jump, scare them or make them cry.
What does need to be addressed within porn is the unsafe, unfair and coercive working conditions some performers are subjected to.

Lurkingsnurker, I am not read well on the subject. I've just read a few books on it while I have been waiting in the library (Ariel Levy, Sarah Walters). I have thought a lot about how we develop our sexual identities, and how we can do that in a way that feels authentic, but that has really been for my purposes, so that I can be happy with my sexuality.

I am going to read Robert Jensen's 'Getting Off - Pornography and the End of Masculinity', which might be more interesting to a male reader. I'll post about it if I think it is worth reading.

Sorry I haven't been more helpful. Maybe Dittany can be.

"Creating media to excite people sexually is no more morally reprehensible than creating media to make them jump, scare them or make them cry."
The Academy of Motion Picture Arts and Sciences gives Oscars, recognised worldwide as an achievement, for the second type of media. The porn industry has created its own parallel oscars to celebrate media to excite people sexually. The porn industry doesn't get a look in in mainstream society precisely due to the lack of morality. Even Ben Dover, as shown in a recent documentary, would much prefer receiving accolades as a mainstream actor rather than receiving porn oscars.

Nipping back a page (just caught up on this thread, and am awestruck by the multidimensional discussion!) - I agree with Math that erotica becomes porn when it is reduced to its most basic characteristics. In my early-feminist days, I took a very different standpoint on popular porn films - even 'popular' films had to be obtained from designated sources, with proof of ID and so on. They may have been very bad films, in terms of direction, script & dramatic skills, but there was a story and the characters had some ... characterisation.

I think that was when the idea of porn as a useful & valid medium took shape. Back then, the most shocking aspect of the films was that women were portrayed as sexually enthusiastic (and were shown having sex). It was a milestone and I supported it. Had I known that, within 15 years, the dialogue would have all but vanished and the imagery become mostly 'bacon shots', I would have found it hard to believe. And I was, certainly, naive.

I'm too tired to carry on with this now, but am confident there'll be more sparkling thought on the thread next time I look!

Potter Stewart was a justice and had to do his job in a specific case, which was to render the most objective assessment that he could, given his education, his legal philosophy, his understanding of his responsibility under the US constitution. (As it turned out, he ruled that the film in question in the case did not seem to him to fit the bill. The second part of his sentence was something along the lines of '..and this is not it.') He was delivering his professional legal appraisal of a certain case, but with a film that was allegedly pornographic, and the question being what was legally definable as porn, the question of what constitutes porn came up and he tried to answer it. And because a judgement is rendered by a straight white male does not invalidate it, surely?

Creating media whose only aim is to excite people sexually, which involves images of denigration of one sex, and which often provoke revulsion in many who watch it, is just as bad, imo, as the treatment and working conditions of the women who do the performing. Just because sex is involved doesn't make something in general nature violent or demeaning ok. If images of women being beaten, pushed to the ground, spat or defecated upon, called horrible names, by groups of men were filmed without the sex component, would that be morally reprehensible? Why does the inclusion of sex make it ok?

Mathanxiety: but that is not the ONLY definition of porn, and not ALL porn involves women being beaten or spat on. Porn involving defecation has always been fairly rare and most of what shows up on line of that nature is not viewed by many people for masturbation purposes, more for shock value. Plenty of porn involves people having sex and enjoying it, with amicable banter between the performers.

There is still this lingering view that engaging in sex somehow diminishes a woman, that women should be sexual gatekeepers, that 'sex' is a commodity men want and women can suppply to them, but which they should withold until a 'good deal' is on the table.
This commodity view of sex, whereupon a woman's 'value' decreases the more of it she has, does appear in the porn industry, particularly in some of the distasteful dodgy stuff that's been appearing recently, but it definitely didn;t start with the porn industry. And stigmatizing the porn industry will not get rid of this outdated and toxic viewpoing.