Another spontaneous night out for DH, now away on business do I.....?

[posieparker]

accept his calls?

Brief history:
Throughout our twelve year relationship DH has had a life without me, in fact the only social life to speak of is had by him. It is not rare for him to go out after work without telling me first. The last few occasions have had much bigger consequences than just making me go crazy. Once he didn't return until 5am, which was the time I had to leave to take my, always helping me out, sister and family to Heathrow, then the time that DS1 had his first friend home for tea and I had to ask my BIL to come and sit the dcs so I could take the little boy home(baby unwell and parking so bad on my road I would have had to park ten minutes down the road with maybe two children asleep), years ago he went out with work on our last night in our first flat leaving me to pack EVERYTHING.....

Him coming home with dcs awake means a pissed gregarious twunt of a man, making me nervous as he's so false and well drunk to the dcs.

anyway you get the picture

So he's gone away on business for a week(new thing to be going away so much) and missing ds1's birthday. Wednesday night he was supposed to be home at 5.30-6pm and arrived(after saying he was at the bus stop/taxi rank at 6.15, 8pm and then phone off) at 11pm pissed. I had told him at 6pm that I had no milk should dc4 wake up...not that he normally would but if he did and no milk NIGHTMARE.

Aside from DS1's birthday would I be out of order not taking his calls at all? I am thinking about him having no contact aside from that day in a bid to make him see what it's like to be ignored and for me not to be around or reliable.

okay, thanks for the responses.

Yes, YBU to suggest not taking phone calls as a way of dealing with fundamental problems in your relationship. I also think you are unreasonable in allowing a relationship to evolve/continue where that behaviour is tolerated. And you have tolerated it. You have had four children with this man. When one party in a relationship behaves very badly I think there is some blame to be had by the other person who accepts it or enables it. Sorry if that sounds harsh.

To suggest that not taking his phonecalls might brings him to his sense shows, if I my say, a lack of emotional maturity on your own part.

Would he consider going to Relate to discuss your relationship problems?

Do you think he has a drink problem?

He is being a total twunt being pissed in front of Dc, esp if it makes you feel on edge.
Dc will pick up on that and ist just not fair on them.

It sounds as though you have talked at him, rather than the 2 of you discussing your future relationship.
I couldn't live like this, and agree your bloke sounds like an alcy, and you don't sound very fond of each other. Your discussion should be along the lines of "this relationship isn't working, can we fix it or are we getting divorced as I'm unwilling to continue as we are".

Well, talk about backfiring! So he arrived in New York and despite his limited cash and my advice to get a bus from the airport he took a cab which took most of his cash and then got to the hotel where his card didn't work. He called me many many many times, I hadn't heard and ignored the phone....he was furious because I should get the phone as it could have been a real emergency(oh the irony).

Anyway I have talked to him, not at him and without leaving the man what can I do. Tolerate is something that I haven't done, at all but unless I leave him, and go where with four children?, I really have no choice. Basically I would have to go into some sort of emergency housing or kick him out...we really have no spare money. The last year or so have been financially crippling, paying our debts £5 at a time....getting better but still too many debts and too much food to buy to even think about spending money elsewhere.

So, you're in debt, but he's going out spending money on drinks when you can't pay the bills?

Sorry, posie, but I'm having a hard time feeling sympathy toward him. And, you DO have plenty of choices; they are difficult and maybe not easy to orchestrate, but saying 'I have no choice' is an excuse. Call some friends, call your family, if you say that your sister and family are helpful, then ask for help.

This likely won't change, posie...so there isn't any advice any of us are going to be able to give you if you are just resigned to stay and tolerate his behaviour.

My parents live in China and my sister lives in a three bedroom house with two children and only two rooms downstairs.

posie I think you do sound rather trapped. Although there are clearly choices all choices have consequences (as we all know).

I wonder if his behaviour especially with regard to the drinking has esalated in line with your debt problems? I'm not trying to excuse him (my dad is an alcoholic so I know all about the effect this has on family life) but I do wonder if this is indicative of his behaviour in general. He seems to see the issues but not actual be able to deal with them or make changes to improve things. Not sure if that makes sense.

I think I would take the approach that you simply cannot afford for him to carry on going out etc as you need the money for other things. He'll hate this but you may need to take charge of the finances. It's treating him like a little boy which I don't think is good for your relationship at all but unless he is prepared to make the changes himself I can't see that you're ever going to be in a position to change things.

Sorry, I'm rambling. I'm also very aware that this attitude is not likely to be shared by the majority of MNers as it is a coping mechanism and definitely NOT a fix.

As has been said earlier, only he can change himself but I think you need to be thinking of yourself and DCs and trying to get yourselves financialy secure in order that you then have more palatable choices.

Why would you and four children have to leave the family house? Shouldn't he leave?

And yes, if you are deep in debt, how much does he spend on his social life?

Well, I think the first thing is to admit that you have been to some extent, the architect of your own downfall. If you let someone treat you like this for 12 years without any consequences, then it's no wonder he thinks he can get away with it. In fact, you're making everything really rather comfortable for him, providing him with four lovely children and keeping the home fires burning while he enjoys his career and social life like a single guy.

You now have 2 choices

1. When he gets back from NY, sit him down, deliver the ultimatum, and basically say "I have had enough. Next time you lie to me and come home pissed four hours after you said you'd be home, having squandered a load of cash we dont have, will be the last time.". However, you've got to mean it and act on it.

1. Stay put and suck it up for the next 17 years until your youngest child leaves home.

I would also suggest a controlled exit as a strategy - i.e. make yourself financially independent and aim to get out by the time you're forty, but if he keeps squandering all the cash when you're holding off your creditors that doesn't seem very feasible. Also, not sure if it's reasonable to expect your business to be able to support you (not that i doubt you, just that i dont have the details).

Whatever you do, make sure your business is set up as a limited company so that it is legally separate from you and your personal debts.

posie, i feel for you, my dh used to go out alot socialising after work and drinking - not because he is an alcoholic - not all people who drink alot are!! surprised me somewhat that just because your dh goes out drinking so many people are willing to suddenly label him an alcy, but anyway, he used to come home late and not necessarily call. It used to drive me up the wall. Since we have had dc he does it less but still sometimes. I think some men are built that way and I think most men are generally less sensitive to womens needs with regard to being contacted (please note I said most not all!)

The way I have dealt with it is to talk to him about how its not so much that I mind that he goes out, I just need him to manage my expectations about when he will be home, and understand that there will be times when I need him to be home even if he wanted to go out. By having an ongoing dialogue I have also come to understand that his way of relaxing after a hard day is to have a few drinks with friends, its how he de stresses. I come home and want to kick back in front of a movie and have down time on my own. Its how we are built.

I also think the commenta about whether or not he is the love of your life are less than helpful. Most marriages go through peaks and troughs, highs where you feel very much in love and lows where you struggle through the weeks while not getting along so well. I don't think this is a reflection of the substance of your marriage, the core on which it is built.

If you really don't love him at all anymore I would, as others have, suggest you consider some counselling, with 4 kids its worth a go surely. But if it is just that your marriage is in the doldrums then you need to decide to do something about it and get across to him what he needs to do tos tep up and what the consequences will be if he doesn't.

Avoiding his calls, while giving you some brief satisfaction will actually not fix any of the problems.

Best of luck, as I have said the only way I fixed a similar, although less severe situation with my DH was by communicating and understanding each others needs.

I've had similar experiences and to be honest it sounds like he's being very manipulating.... on his last trip he actually had a go at you although he was the one who wasted his money on a cab! If his card didn't work, it was the bank he should have called, not you - and if it was because he had no money, then it wasn't your fault because you told him not to get a cab! Please don't let him bully you.

Is he being totally honest with you? Do you believe the excuses, the coming home in the early hours and the regular business trips?
Is your instinct telling you something you can't bear to believe? If so, trust your instinct.

You say you have no choice but from what you've said you're effectively a single mother anyway... perhaps if you did take on the finances for a while you might be able to limit the drinking and put a tiny amount of money away into your own account so that there will come a time when you have some money that gives you some freedom. Then hopefully you will feel you do have a choice and that you're staying together for the right reasons....

I have experienced very similar problems with my current and previous partners, and it could destroy your confidence if you let it. Couples counselling will really help you decide if he loves you and whether he can ever be the husband you want him to be...and if you can't afford it, perhaps the doctors could provide you with some emotional counselling that will give you coping mechanisms...

I was only trying the not taking calls to prove to him just how frustrating it is when you can't get hold of your spouse! The work and drinks thing is often paid for by the company, it's sales and so getting pissed is actively encouraged.....in fact a few recovering alcoholics have worked there and after a significant relapse they've had to leave!

Ah, ok, so most of the times he's out on the lash he's actually entertaining clients? That does put rather a different spin on it, although it doesn't excuse him not calling to tell you he won't be back or that he's going out in the first place.

Is he in equity sales/brokerage by any chance?

posie I work in corporate sales too and understand this culture. I was going to ask if it was his corporate credit card that was declined. If so, he either needs to do his expenses or get it up to date because he won't be able to do his job without it but I guess you know that...

so if he works in sales he could be putting the energy into winning more business/getting more commission, and getting you out of debt, rather than being the first in line with a pint for colleagues? For every excuse he gives/you allow, there is a rational alternative...

he doesn't have to do the drinking; he could find a less drink-focused job; he could agree to go out once a week with work but come home by a certain time; it goes on.

Only the two of you can agree the way you handle it but if he makes you unhappy enough to refuse to answer his calls, even if it's to make a point, something needs to change.

He's getting something out of the nights out that is fulfilling a need because otherwise he wouldn't do it. Perhaps it's just escape from the mundane daily life of parenthood, but he made the choice and he's got to grow up, and the only way things will get better is if he realises what's at stake and understands that you cannot be taken for granted...

No, not entertaining clients only his team/floor. He simply continues his 'lad' life when out drinking, I have explained that he cannot make selfish choices because he's got to be sixth in the pecking order, as I am.

Ok- in that case I revert to my earlier position (harsh bitch stance). I had some sympathy if he was expected to entertain clients 5 nights a week (they dont call equity sales "News and Booze" for nothing)but if he's just hanging out with colleagues then it just evaporated.

Tel him to check in or check out.

Is being an alcoholic grounds to kick him out of the family home?

If so,I´d change the locks & send his stuff somewhere else tbh.

If you decide to divorce then it's unlikely you'd have to leave the house. He would, and the house is usually then split financially, although I'm in Scotland where stuff is split 50:50, in England you'd probably get more if you have the kids.
A family law expert would clarify your position.
You do have choices, although many women chose to just accept an inadequate relationship and moan alot.

So if he doesn't change, and we all know he won't, then I should kick him out? Depriving my dcs of their father full time, well fullish time? These occasions are once/twice a month...do I really split up my family for that? Not diminishing it at all, just not sure it's worth splitting up for.....

posieparker, I admire you for not just jumping to kicking your DH out.

Could you agree some sort of weekly/monthly plan? So for instance, looking at the week, agreeing days where he absolutely needs to be home, days where he could be a bit later, etc.

Just opening up communication again?

And likewise, booking in some 'me time' for you.

my dad did the same thing all the time

would frequently take all the money out on pay day and then disappear for a few days

children do notice these things

he sounds like a alcoholic or just v v selfish

tbh the fact that it is not a one/two/three off I would be making plans to go, he will not change unless he thinks he has to and why would he think that? you have put up with it the other 234 times he has done it

PP- I hear you. If I had to choose between inconsiderate H and abject poverty, I'm not sure I'd be quick to jump either. It's all very well saying money can't buy you happiness, but it makes being miserable a lot more comfortable- anyway, I digress.

I wouldn't actually have a problem with H going on the lash 1/2 a month or even 1/2 a week TBH. It's the fact that he lies about where he's going and has left you high and dry a couple of times when you had important plans/ commitments of your own. Unfortunately this suggests he doesn't hold your opinion in very high regard.

If you're going to sit tight, you need to get a life of your own, separate from being a mother and wife (seems like you're already doing that with your business). Then his transgressions will probably seem far less important.

You can just say "Look, I dont begrudge you having a life but I need one too so on X day/ night, you have to look after the kids so I can go [thai fighting]." Make your own social life.