to think that my 3yr old should not have to take himself to the toilet at nursery?

[twirlymum]

I haven't been on here in aaaaages, but I know I can rely on you lovely ladies for some good old common sense, so tell me if I'm being neurotic please......

My ds (just 3) is due to start nursery next week. It is my third choice, as he didn't get a place at the others. I visited for the second time last week, and stayed with ds for the session. I was a bit shocked to find that the children are expected to take themselves to the toilet, and do not even have to ask/tell a teacher before they go.
This concerns me on a number of levels:
He is a boy. He very rarely wees in a straight line.
I think he will have trouble getting on and off the toilet (they are small toilets, but even so)
He will definitely have trouble wiping his bottom if he has to poo.
He forgets to wash his hands
He has trouble, and no-one even knows he is in there.

I would have thought that from a 'health and safety' point of view, they should at least have an adult there?

Your advice please.

have not read all the posts but in Wales it is a minimum care standard that children of three should take themseleves to the toilet and the setting should encurage this.

In the preschool where I worked we would let the children take themselves off to the toilet down the corridor and most got used to going unaided. If a child had not masterd that skill however we would go with them.

We also would go before snack time as a whole group.

Yes there were accidents but thats how they learn.

Gosh what will my dd do in a French nursery. The HV this week told me that a month makes a lot of difference to a child, it may not seem like a lot to us. I have resiged myself to thinking that we all reach the same stage whether it is early or on the later end of the spectrum, I am not in a nappy and I dont think my dd will be when she is 21 , well I hope not anyway. DD at the moment cannot tell you if she is wet or dry, or has done a poo, and does not show any understanding despite 15 months of showing her what to do and putting her in kickers temporarily.

Sounds like the nursery that dd will go to secondary. Hopefully by watching other children dd will get the hang of what to do and what is expected from her.

twirlymum - i can understand why you are concerned about this but i think you will find most nurserys do this as it would be impractical for teacher to be taking children to the toilet every five minutes etc.

However, i would not be too happy about toilets being down a corridor, at the nursery i experienced they were off the main room. Please talk to the teachers about your concerns and i'm sure they will help your ds to begin with. I think you will find that a great deal of 3 year olds are not fully toilet trained, it is still very young and the nursery staff will know this better than anyone.

I am sure that once your ds gets used to the nursery he will soon have no problem taking himself to the toilets and will get used to it, as others have said it is a valuable life skill!

As an aside i have always found that toilet training is something that parents who have found it very easy can get very smug about. As a parent who has had two children, one of which was very difficult to toilet train, the other was very easy and took to it very quickly, i know it is nothing to do with parenting 'skills' it is very dependent on the child as they are all so different and do things in their own time.

I remember going to settling in sessions with my DC to nursery. The toilets were set within the nursery and children were allowed to go by themselves.

However the staff seemed to have a sixth sence or eyes in the back of there head or something because as soon as somebody came out of the toilets, they would shout wash your hands, flush the chain, use the soap or whatever prompt was needed.

Op I think you need to just encourage your DS at home to support his independence.

YABU my son and daughter started nursery at 2 when they were still in nappies but when they started using a toilet they went on their own, we never had any problems etc as all of the toilets, sink and dryers are child height they also had those special toddler wipes to wipe themselves with so they got themselves clean. He is used to going on his own at home I dont go with him so never had a problem at nursery.
The toilets are nomrally really close to one of the rooms anyway so its not liket they are left too far away from staff if there was a problem.

I totally agree MadameAdelaid, there are parents with whome the child was ready at an early age and 'got it' quite quickly getting quite smug, and there have been a couple on here. Most things I have shown dd she is quick to learn or knows the gist of what to do, with PT she knows how to use the toilet but has no clue when to go or what physiological signs to look out for that tells her she needs to go. I give any of those smug parents my dd and see how easy they find it then

I think there is a difference between a daycare nursery and a pre-school nursery that is attached to a school. The first one is really there to look after your children but the second is an educational establishment . They will each employ staff that are appropriate to their requirements. I have never heard of any pre-school nursery at a school that employs staff in the ratio of 1:6 as suggested by another poster. The ones I know about tend to have a teacher and a couple of nursery nurses for about 30 children. The only extra staff are LSAs employed to work with specific children, much as there are in a school. I wonder how happy parents would be if there child reported that there were no activities etc because the teacher was spending all her time taking children to the toilet and wiping their backsides for them? Certainly when my own DCs went to playgroup and then nursery, they could not have the place unless they were clean and dry. The only exceptions made were for those children who had genuine medical reasons, rather than just 'not being ready'.

The ratio I mentioned was for our local play-school.

Certainly the manager does not have more than 28 children and there are at least 5 staff members and usually a work experience/college type girl there to.

Well sayithowitis I am glad that times have changed then! They do have a nursery nurse there that at the pre school where dd will go specifically for personal issues like helping the child to toilet train. Well not being ready is a medical issue imo, its to do with the child having the maturity to recognise physiological signs that they need to go and acting on them. We are talking about pre schoolers, not school children, they are still very young and learning how to use the toilet and skills associated with that. My goodness we expect toddlers/ preschoolers whatever you wish to call them to be able to use the toilet competently, make adult conversation etc when they are still only young, no wonder parents feel like failures if their child is not as quick to develop such skills. Yes by the time a child reaches school age it is expected that they will be able to use the toilet competently unless they have a medical reason. My dd will start school next september, which is a year and a half away so i prettty hope that she will be able to use the loo independently by that stage.

YANBU- I totally agree that most 3-4 yr olds are quite capable of taking themselves to the toilet without help and should be encouraged to do so. My ds toilet traine at 2.3 and when he started nursery at almost 3.5 he was perfectly able.

My dd1 however started nursery at 3.1 having been toilet trained for 6 weeks because the nursery said she couldn't come in nappies. She wet herself every day for a week even though she had been doing well at home. I asked her about it and she said she wanted a grown up to help her. Bearing in mind it was all new to her, she was just 3, just toilet trained, a late developer and absolutely tiny for her age meaning that she could't climb on to the toilets easily, couldnt pull her trousers up, flush the toilet or work the taps I thought it was a reasonable request. I asked the nursery teachers and was told that they didn't have the staff ratio to help her.

She's 3.5 now and she manages but still has accidents at nursery.

just wanted to say i wasnt being smug about the age my daughter trained at, was just putting her age in so that u knew she wasnt like 5...
in my school if a child enters nursery who is not yet trained, then yes they get different support when going to the toilet and a member of staff will be there to keep asking and to support when necessary to assist in toilet training.
What my point was that the OP's child can use the toilet and is toilet trained, she was just concerned about him wiping himself which is where i said it is unrealisteic to think that teachers have the time to do this for every child when its not really needed.
In response to OPs post, i dont think that many 3 year olds find it difficult getting on and off the toilets that are in nurseries - ive seen tiny 3 year olds manage (and also my 2.5 dd-not being smug, just for size-wise comparison!)
yes little ones wee on the floor, and ive seen faeces on the walls and toilet paper holders but children know not to touch this and will tell you if they see it before you have. and lastly, if he gets into trouble, he can shout (like many ive heard) and if for any reason a teacher didnt hear him, other children would and would tell the adult. Dont underestimate 3 year olds, they are smarter than many think
he will be fine.
and for whoever said they were glad its not my nursery, im sorry. i would never judge a child (or parent) for not being trained at 3; i know every child is different and that they will get it when theyre ready.

yes exactly piglet, they are still learning at nursery, it is a transistion period so that by the time they get to reception they have had some practice with these things, i don't think they are all expected to be perfectly toilet trained as soon as they start nursery. Thats what nursery is there for really, so they can make mistakes and learn independence in a relaxed environment.

DD1 was three and a half when she finally permitted herself to be potty-trained (it seemed to be a mental block with her more than anything else) and the nursery would not let her come until then.
While I can understand that they do have to draw a line and set criteria that they then stick to I still could not help feeling that it was a shame as she was ready for all the other aspects of nursery and missing out on those (and seeing the others would probably have helped her to overcome her mental block more quickly).
So am pretty impressed with Pigletmania's school.

osmama - i think that is a real shame nurserys seem to vary quite a lot on this, ours was very good. i agree that your dd seeing the other children using toilets etc would probably have helped her more than anything.

Thanks Imamissandmummy for clarifying things as it certainly helps, your other post made you sound a bit harsh tbh and now i do totally agree with you. Wish that my dd would get on with it, but was told my the HV this week to put all potties away, dont mention toilet training or anything associated with it unless of course she asks to go or asks for it than offer her. I got so angry in the past with dd when i had tried to tt her last, in November, when i treid to have another stab at it a couple of weeks back and she weed and left a puddle, i pointed at it and said K whats that, and she said 'naughty' I felt rubbish and so .

Yes Osmama I was when we went at Christmas for a parent talk with the head and the teachers, I was so worried about her not being toilet trained by then and that she would miss out, and they were so reassuring and helpful and said that they had a nursery nurse there that help with these things. Hopfully by going there and seeing all the other 'big boys and girls' and wanting to be a big girl night help things along a bit. If not i will TT in the summer months when the weather is warmer.

And they said that they would put her on the toilet despite her in pull ups and see other children using the toilet too which would help as she only sees me , dd has no other borthers or sisters and no children around her except for my friends ones.

DS is 3 (will be 4 in May).

In my experience (had 2 kids at 4 different nurseries over the past 4 years) both the nurseries catering for kids in their first year of nursery (ie DD October birthday started at 2 years 11 months, DS May birthday started at 2 years 4 months) both took the kids to the toilet and supervised them but both the pre-reception year nurseries (attached to primary schools) (where the youngest children have just turned 3 at the start of the year) do not. DD used to yell when she'd done a poo and someone came to to help. DS (aged 3.5) happy to wipe himself, but he does sometime come home a bit damp. Doesn't bother me, he has to learn.