to think that my 3yr old should not have to take himself to the toilet at nursery?

[twirlymum]

I haven't been on here in aaaaages, but I know I can rely on you lovely ladies for some good old common sense, so tell me if I'm being neurotic please......

My ds (just 3) is due to start nursery next week. It is my third choice, as he didn't get a place at the others. I visited for the second time last week, and stayed with ds for the session. I was a bit shocked to find that the children are expected to take themselves to the toilet, and do not even have to ask/tell a teacher before they go.
This concerns me on a number of levels:
He is a boy. He very rarely wees in a straight line.
I think he will have trouble getting on and off the toilet (they are small toilets, but even so)
He will definitely have trouble wiping his bottom if he has to poo.
He forgets to wash his hands
He has trouble, and no-one even knows he is in there.

I would have thought that from a 'health and safety' point of view, they should at least have an adult there?

Your advice please.

I dont know, YANBU, not all children are at the same stage or same level of understanding, so some might need more support than others, gosh they are only little hardly school age children. I think that we in the UK want them to grow up so fast and to be toilet trained, feeding themselves and making adult conversation by the time their 6 months . My dd if left on her own to go to the loo would not have a bit of clue what to do, she would probably put her hand down the loo and play with the water (she is very young for her age)

my 2.11 year old is not even PT yet and will start nursery school next month . Just not ready and not interested at all, and is not making any connection, Iv been trying for about 15 months and will follow the HV advice and others on here just to leave her.

The thing is he is not the 1st child they have had is he....so they must be used to it. I doubt they have had accidents else health and safely would mean they wouldn't be able to do it...

plus you say they don't ask but I let my children in my class go to the toilet without asking,,,but I always know who has gone and how long they have gone for

it is part of growing up and being independent....children do things at nursery/school their parents wouldn't believe they could do at school. Plus very quickly you get used to what they can and can't do

But you have a choice..if you don't like it don't send him..wait till his older and you are more comfortable with the idea

I do understand you are worried if he is only just 3. But I do think you should be working on this with him at home because I really do think kids should be taught to be capable of going to the loo alone before they are 4. I certainly was!

I have been practising with him at home, but obviously we have a full size toilet, so it's not quite the same!

I think in DS's nursery they used to just go when they needed to, but the loos were very close and I did overhear a teacher asking a couple of times if wiping/hand washing had been done.

Toilets a distance away is a problem because when DS was 3 he had the attention span of a 3yo boy and wouldn't make it back because there would probably be something vastly more interesting to investigate.

DS is fastidious in his toilet habits now and I can only assume it comes from being given responsibility for them early on.

Oh no Lady what hope have i got with my dd 2.11, i have been trying and getting upset and distressed for 15 months. I am hoping that once she goes to nursery school in March she will want to be like the big girls and boys, they have a nursery nurse there too to help them with personal issues like toilet training so they said that they would help me support her.

Yes, but 2.11 is very little (as it just 3). I just mean when they are getting towards 4. But what do I know, my DD is 14 months and no doubt all my grand plans for her being able to go to the loo unassisted at 3 will bite me on the bum later

Lady i too had those grand plans, I had visions of dd talking fluently by 3, 2.11 getting better but not like some of the dcs of mums/dads on MN. DD would be fully toilet trained by 3, able to take herself to the toilet like we do and know what to do like we do, does she now, does she heck!!! I do believe that they will do it when they are ready, it is when their physiology supports it, i cannot make the connection between dd feeling that she needs to go and her going to the potty/toilet, its something that they need to do themselves no amout of potty training as i have found will do that if their not ready psychologicall and physically.

There are signs of readiness and dd shows 1 of about 5 of them. If you do potty train you might arrive at the same stage as if you never trained and waited for them to be ready.

I teach in Thailand and have a class of 3 year olds. All are expected to ask before going to the loo, so I know where they are. They ALL go unassisted. It gets a bit chaotic at break times if they all go together, but they manage really well. The boys sometimes get a bit on the floor, but its a kindergarten, and they are learning. They forget handwashing sometimes, so I brought them all little towels to dry their hands on, which encourages them. I find children are a lot more independant and capable in Thailand, as they are given the opportunity at an earlier age. Health and safety is practically non-existence here , but people certainly manage.

IMO, YABU, as a teacher of early years i find threads like this amazing. Children entering nursery at age 3 should be expected to go to the toilet on their own. Why not? Most of the little ones ive experienced at nursery would be mortified if their teacher went to the toilet with them to wipe them every time! that aside, teachers have more important things to be doing than taking 30 kids to the toilet each session.
Can you imagine how long that would take? Health and safety means we would have to change to a new pair of latex gloves for each child, 30 children x 3 toilet trips each makes this a no-brainer.
Parents who have no experience of how schools work seem to have such a jaded view of teachers who have nothing better to do than to take their precious 3 year old to the toilet.
My 2.5 dd has been expected to use the toilet alone from being trained at 23 months at her preschool and she is now more than capable of cleaning herself properly. If i've ever tried to help when shes poorly, say, she thinks im being silly and says "im not a baby, mummy!"
Let your 3 year old get his independence and dont worry about him going it alone!

Iamamissandamummy I am shocked, I am glad that the nursery that my dd is going to is very supportive and not like you tbh. I have tried to toilet train my dd on the verge of me getting angry and in tears because of expectations like this! Sorry every child is different and not like yours, i cannot force my dd to become toilet trained i tried and it did not happen, what do you want me to do chain her to the loo? I believe that each child will do it when they are ready, as i have been told by a couple of doctors and HV that i have seen about it, and me getting anxious and stressed probably made it worse tbh. They are still young at 3 and are learning fgs they are still babies in the grand scheme of things. Yes if she is not ready by early summer i will be going cold turkey and just putting her in knickers.

But you are being quite harsh imamissandammmy

At DD's playgroup, assistance was given as it was needed. Some 3 year olds being fully independent and some needing reminding to go and a lot of help. The staff got to know who was who and I'm sure you can mention that he needs a bit of help if your DS won't ask for help himself when he goes.
I'm certain they'd rather just help him than change clothes he's sprayed on or clean up the toilet floor afterwards.

imamiss, I'm glad he's not going to your school!

I think the nursery is fine doing this.

It is important for children to know that it is inappropriate for an adult (other than parent but even that will become inappropriate at a later age) to go into a toilet with them.
If the nursery don't promote independence then who will?
Children are also shown that it is their individual choice when they need the toilet.
He will learn to do it probably quicker than you think, so try not to worry.

I think the nursery is fine doing this.

It is important for children to know that it is inappropriate for an adult (other than parent but even that will become inappropriate at a later age) to go into a toilet with them.
If the nursery don't promote independence then who will?
Children are also shown that it is their individual choice when they need the toilet.
He will learn to do it probably quicker than you think, so try not to worry.

Well I was ready when was was just over 3 my mum said, she did try earlier but it was not successful, one day i just did it and had no accidents so there you go.Recently my nephew who is also a few months over 3 did it himself without training and is dry day and night on his own.

Lucky you iamimissandmummy that your dd was ready so early, well others are not and no amout of toilet training will work if they are not making the connection on a physical level. I would love to see you try with my dd Yes dd knows how to go to the toilet she has seen me enough times and i have done it with her, but she does not know when to go and that she needs to go its like a baby at the moment, though she does show a couple of signes but not consistently.

Are you talking about joining nursery as a 'Rising 3'? Because DD, now 4, has been in nursery since just after she was 3 and she is only there for 2 hours a day. How long will your DS be at nursery for?

I started off by making sure she had a wee before she went in. She has had maybe 2 accidents in the whole of the time she has been there, a few times she's not wiped her bum properly, it got sore, I said 'Well, you need to make sure you wipe it properly or it will get sore' and now she does.

If he is only going to be there for 2 hours or so then YABU.

If he will be there all day and could possibly have to wear dirty/wet pants for 6 hours then YANBU

My dd will only be 2.3 hours a day in march, i will put her in pull ups as they have told me to, give them changes of clothes in case. They are ever so good, its attatched to the primary school, the teachers have said that they will also encourage her independence there esepcially in the toilet department. Mabey seeing other 'big girls/boys' will encourage her. After she has been there for a couple of moths i will go cold turkey and the weather will be warmer for her to run about in pants.

He will be there for 2 1/2 hours.
I don't think he will have a problem actually going (with a little practise), I am just concerned that the toilets are down the corridor, and if he should have a problem, no-one will hear him.

Twirlymum, I have been having a think about how I felt when mine were starting nursery so I will give you a YABalittlebutunderstandablyU

(When DS2 started he was non verbal and I was worried about everything because I thought he wouldn't be able to communicate his needs, but he survived. I think I have managed to block out just how traumatised I felt about him going!)

I think it unlikely that your DS would be abandoned in the toilet for too long, our nursery has a set routine of activities that they do throughout the 2 hours and I'm sure if DD was missing from that someone would go and investigate.

Good luck to your DS, I'm sure he'll be fine

In French nurseries, all the children are taken off to the loo in groups at regular intervals by the support assistant at the start of their nursery career aged 2. they are not allowed to start nursery until they're in pants, so they all arrive more or less toilet trained anyway. those who are still a bit hit and miss learn very quickly to get it right. Nurseries have rows of little loos without cubicles so the assistant can supervise them. They learn from each other how to do things very quickly. By 3 they are very confidently using the loo by themselves. I would be surprised if British children were so very different in timings from French children- it's more a question of opportunity to learn and expectation.

So yes, I do think YABU- you have to teach him to do these things independently so that he doesn't need help with them at nursery. Or delay his entry into nursery.

This thread is unbelievable.

There is a huge huge huge difference between a child who has just turned 3 and a 4yr old.

Children learn by guided practice, not just leave them to it and they will have to get it in the end. And why is everyone theorizing that there is one teacher taking 30 children to the toilet, surely in nursery there is a key worker with 6/7 children that she would have to take to the toilet during a session. How difficult is that

And she would only be doing this until they had proved that they can adequately do it themselves so not even all of the children would need help.

My DS (3years) goes on his own at home and at nursery.

At home we help with bottom wiping and reminding him to handwash.

At nursery the staff either assist with bottom wiping when asked by him or put his spare pants on him and send the skiddy ones home to me.

It's just a part of gaining independence and he is learning... slowly! He learned to pee standing up at nursery after point blank refusing to try to stand up for a year. It adds a whole new dimension to the toilet puddle on the floor experience .

Ah well, it's not a big issue IMO really. In the grand scheme of things.

BTW I should have said that I agree that just 3 and rising 4 are very different stages. My DS is rising 4 and still struggles with his bum wiping at times as mentioned before. However at 2 years 11 months he was not reliably dry in the day even. He is now in a far more supportive nursery environment (we moved house). His first nursery told me to use pull ups even though I was actively training at home .