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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Thrad about a thread and happy todeclare it: 'everyone knows being welfare dependent is morally wrong'. No it'snot, only if you choose that. Otherwise it is luck dependent and

172 replies

BethNoireNewNameForPeachy · 09/02/2010 12:35

luck can't make you morally wrong. It just is.

If your employer goes under, you are not morally wronng.

If your pension plan colapses three years before you retire, you are not morally wrong.

If you are sick,or a carer, or any of a lot of other things- you are not morally wrong.

Passing random judgements in a way that can hurt people is, however, IMO morally wromng.

Please someone tell me why people don't just get that?

And no I don'tcare I broke MN tradition by starting a thread about a thread, first I remember breaking in nigh on a decade and am angry. Arrrrghhhhhhh.

If this gets deleted, so be it.

OP posts:
Portofino · 09/02/2010 19:12

HappyMummy, I agree that you should not have a "right" to not work if you have children, and that people do have children they can't afford, but I do believe the Govt needs to do something about feckless, non-contributing fathers, and about providing affordable nursery provision and wrap round care in schools before anyone gets on their high horse about lone parents working.

LEMprefersdogstocats · 09/02/2010 19:12

I agree totlly with the OP, however, i think that there are members of society who are not, Sick, carers, just made redundant etc etc

They are often percieved as layabouts, lazy good for nothings who sponge off the state - im sure a high proportion on them are. But a high proportion of them are poorly educated, underprivaliged and don't know anything else. It runs in families, as it were - it becomes a vicious circle almost, although many do break that cycle, many don't. Is it REALLY their fault if they dont have the brains or the education to get out there into the work force?

I have very split views about benefits - we have a moral duty as a society to care for all the children in it - whats that saying "children are cared for by the village" that is often bandied around? So, does that not extend to the children of lazy arse parents then, or parents who are, sorry - a bit thick? Don't they matter - isnt the benefit system there precisely to protect those?

BethNoireNewNameForPeachy · 09/02/2010 19:28

LEM that is eactly thereason I never argue to stop benefits forcertain groups- eg long term unemployed when work available.We as a sociaety do have a responsibility to the very most vulnerable, and thatmost definitely includes children in familliesin the benefit cycle.

There arealso ways the cycle can be broken- for examplewhen you go back to work benefits stop immediately even if pay dosn't come in then.

Fair enough if you were amde redundant in the last ar or so,you'll have ben able to put money back as benefits technically start from that day 9although what with means testing may not actually).

A completely different proposition entirely when people have never worked, or have beenlong term off for wahtever reason.

It would make sense tometo instead not pay anything until the number of weeks paid at the end of a job are used,but to pay benefits until the week of pay.

Childcare is of course still a maor issue: wraparound care at our school? You must be having a laugh! You used to be able to leave the kids at 8.30, can't even do that now as Head pulled funding with days notice,oh that helped the working parents!

the city I live near is recognised as one of the worst three areas for being hit by the recession, the jobs thata re available are mainly in shiftwork,Are there any palces providing shift childcare? you guessed it.... nothing for kids with SN unless they attend one specific unit (mine don't),

It's allw elland good to say people should... but there has to be a way for them to do that. Most would: working pays,in veryy many ways,socially,personally and indeed formany financially- when DH lost his ft job the benefitamount wegained was£400 pcm: I promise you,as amanager for a well known haulage fiorm,he earned a damned site more than that! Clearly working did pay.

It's very true that there are those choosing to not work, but equally there are those prevented from working and I suspect addressing that would savem oney as well, if you looklong term anyway, but that never gets the empahsis does it? OK so helping to provide Sn childcare now costs XXX but if it means peoplecan pay their bills, own a house (so no lifelong HB claim), have a pension, pay tax surely long term benefits must be rpesent?Even for things like MH and the like?

We'relucky in that DH had a PT job as well which means with Uni we can get by but he really dislikes being labelled as aclaimant when in fact between the two he is putting in 70+ hours (he has a thing about acing every assignment). That's very far from sitting at home with the plasma and a beer and contributing nothing. And it means he might just get back into FT again one day (its te sort of degree where you come with actualqualifications to do,rather than a useless arts degree like mine)

OP posts:
ToccataAndFudge · 09/02/2010 19:37

There are of course situations where its morally wrong to claim benefits -...........lone parents with children over 1 (mat leave is only a year so IS should be the same as this)"

my youngest is 2 3/4yrs old - I have no moral qualms about having rung up and applied for IS again last week.

bibbitybobbityhat · 09/02/2010 19:40

Peachy - it is terrible to see you so outraged and upset.

Some silly fool posted that on another thread. 99.9% of mumsnetters don't agree with her.

Anything you care to post about on Mumsnet, anything at all, will attract replies from people with deeply opposing views. We have a vast community and I have never yet seen a thread where all is friendly and everyone agrees with each other and no one slags anyone else off.

Please don't be so upset by someone who appears to be in a minority of one on here.

BethNoireNewNameForPeachy · 09/02/2010 19:42

Well IS stillhas to be available for when peoplecan't find a job doesn't it? there simply acn't be cut offlimits like a year.

otherwise not sure what I think tbh- I do think society benefits from at home aprents, I also think we have a rsponsibility to try and feed ourselves so on thae I am somewhat unusually undecided.

OP posts:
ToccataAndFudge · 09/02/2010 19:44

well I think what she's saying is that it should be IS up to your youngest being 1yr old, and then you should be on JSA when they turn 1

Portofino · 09/02/2010 19:51

Toccata - I could say I went back to work when dd was 5 month's old because I had to earn money, so that argument is invalid.

But on the other hand, I could afford the childcare and I know that many people just couldn't. So it goes out the window.

This is where the "village" used to come in. People helped each other out. Women always worked. Nowadays everyone needs to be vetted to within an inch of their lives to so much as sniff your child.

ToccataAndFudge · 09/02/2010 19:53
thesecondcoming · 09/02/2010 19:57

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

LEMprefersdogstocats · 09/02/2010 19:58

exactly - there is that other argument that certain groups of people would be no better off working than on benefits. People get up in arms and say that they should work, why should they be given a free ride - fair enough, but would you really want your child in full time child care so that you can barely cover your expenses that would have been covered by the benifits system.

There needs to be more provision for DECENT childcare and a buffering system for those who are unqualified and unable to do anything other than minimum wage jobs. That of course needs to be paid for - its a sorry state of affairs when people are better off on benefits but that is often the case.

Im struggling to find work Bethnoire - i have a useless science degree and phd, don't rubbish your degree woman!

Portofino · 09/02/2010 19:58

Aaah!!

ToccataAndFudge · 09/02/2010 20:00

[wink} @ Porto

yes - I know you do see the bigger picture when you know the fuller story

right must go and put DS3 to bed and hope I don't fall asleep, am shattered but must study tonight............or maybe I'll just sort the house and chill tonight and do extra tomorrow

LEMprefersdogstocats · 09/02/2010 20:02

oh well she would hate me then TSC - we get over £100 a week tax credits, and we only have one child! I have turned down jobs because I would be worse off, having lost the TCs and having to fork out for childcare when i am really not comfortable with having my DD in fulltime childcare.

I have no remorse about having TCs why should i? I ve paid enough to the HMRC to cover it thankyou very much. I have made my contributions - so has my DP. He has a building business and its struggling - although now showing signs of blossoming into something where we will be off benefits and paying it all back through the extra tax we have to pay - so while we need that extra support - i'll take it, thanks very much - anyone who doesn;t like it can shove their judges hat up their arses

HappyMummyOfOne · 09/02/2010 20:03

Why should it not change from IS to JSA when a child reaches one though? Tax credits pay the bulk of childcare to low earners and with WTC there is no reason not to work. Its a far better use of tax payers money to support with early childcare costs so that a parent can be employed and costs will naturally drop in childcare as the child gets older. Parent gets to support the child they choose to have and the child grows up with a good work ethic. Yes the absent parent should pay but unless a high earner its usually not enough to allow the ex to be a SAHM so both may need to work.

Paying IS for years means that the person will most likely have no upto date job skills and will find it much harder to gain employment after so long. Stats show that children who grow up on benefits often go onto claim them themselves and the cycle never gets broken.

Many women have no choice but to return after maternity leave, some less than 12 months - the government shouldn't pay some to stay home and not others.

There is a huge difference if a child has special needs or is disabled but usually having a child does not render a person incapable of work.

Portofino · 09/02/2010 20:03

I have to add that I think it is the SYSTEM that is wrong rather than most individuals. There are the odd ones that take the piss, but I honestly believe most people are just trying the best they can. Have said this on many a thread.

There are lots of things the Govt could do that would make a real difference. They just don't do it.

Mumcentreplus · 09/02/2010 20:10

Aint it a bitch..the goverment will pay someone else to care for your children while you work?..

the parent of the child works..while the government pay almost £200 per week to someone else to care for that child..sorry it does not compute!?!..you put your baby (because imo a 1yr old is not even a toddler) in 'childcare' paid for by the government so you can work and not even make as much money as the childcare??..tis twisted..so many people have opinions but dont know what 'JSA' entails..they bandy the words and jargon about but have no idea..

LEMprefersdogstocats · 09/02/2010 20:17

Mumcentre plus - that is the most sense i have read on this thread so far!!

Kaloki · 09/02/2010 20:19

"long term JSA because it pays more"

.. maybe I'm thick but, why would you willingly get a job that pays less than JSA and that meant you had to pay taxes on top and for prescriptions? You'd be deliberately making yourself worse off, which shows what exactly? Especially when JSA isn't much money in the first place.

ToccataAndFudge · 09/02/2010 20:23

"Paying IS for years means that the person will most likely have no upto date job skills and will find it much harder to gain employment after so long."

Well I guess that depends on individual circumstances doesn't it.

Someone who sits on their arse for however many years is going to find it harder.

Someone who uses the time to increase their and their childs chances in life by studying, doing a degree, or similar I would have thought would find it a little easier.

HappyMummyOfOne · 09/02/2010 20:34

"might i suggest you aren't such a 'happymumofone' if you feel the need to have a go at anyone and everyone?"

Thesecondcoming, no i'm perfectly happy thanks and I wasnt having a go at anybody. The thread was about morals and benefit claimers, I agreed with the OP on her comments and then added some (as I am free to do so) about my views when it is morally wrong to claim benefits. However everyone has different morals and views and I made no personal comments against you like you have done to me.

wastingaway · 09/02/2010 20:40

define 'work ethic'

ToccataAndFudge · 09/02/2010 20:51

oooooo you killed the thread wasting

thesecondcoming · 09/02/2010 20:54

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Mumcentreplus · 09/02/2010 21:10

wow!..how scary..we are now talking about who should have children..and why??..interesting