To think Simon Hoggart could have got up and helped this "fraught and harrassed looking woman" instead of just feeling sorry for her.

[bumpyboo]

This is what Simon Hoggart wrote in Saturdays' Guardian.

"Baby buggies seem to get steadily bigger, so that if you're behind two mums having a chat, it's like being blocked on a motorway while one gigantic truck edges past another at a total speed of half a mile an hour.

The other day two of these vast things, like scaled-down SUVs, were wheeled on to a packed bus I was in. The first juggernaut occupied all the space provided for strollers, so the other had to block the whole aisle, making it impossible for other passengers to move.

That mother looked fraught and harassed, and I felt sorry for her, but it didn't occur to either of them to get off and wait for a less crowded bus"

Err maybe you could have got up and helped her fold the buggy Simon?
I've sometimes waited for ages in London for a bus with space for a buggy so when one comes you usually have to get on it and when you've got a baby its pretty hard to fold the thing up and hold the baby as well especially on a crowded moving bus.
Here's the link if anyone wants to look.

www.guardian.co.uk/theguardian/2010/feb/06/climate-change-simon-hoggarts-week

if a wheelchair comes on yes you have to move, i don't think thats negotiable really. but i wouldn't fold i just block the aisle.. yes its inconvenient for people but not my fault a wheelchair came on, so they'll just have to go round. i wouldnt block more space than necessary or anything, but if i've paid for the bus already and im in a rush im not getting off. in london you can fit 2 buggies in the space even in they are big. if i was there first im not moving for anyone else, and if someone else was there first i wouldnt ask them to move or fold it. the first 2 people with buggies on the bus have no need to fold, cos the bus has room for them. if 3rd person wants to come and fold then up to them, but if someone told me to fold it and i was 1st or 2nd then no & i would be quite annoyed actually, its not convenient to fold it up even with one baby and chang bag etc, but now i have two in a p&t so definitely no, i dont even know how to fold it..
people make such a big deal for nothing, if they hate the pushchairs that much then they get off the bus themself!!

simplest would of course be for the rules to be changed so only folded buggies would be allowed on the bus and the space would be wheelchairs only rather than "buggies allowed if no wheelchairs" which gives licence to any idiot to think their PFB is more important than a 6 year old in SN buggy/wheelchair because they got on first.

if only folded buggies were allowed on buses, then everyone who needed to travel by public transport would buy something more appropriate to the situation, or use a sling, rather than assume their supertanker has right of access over anyone else...

TBH JemL, I don't think anyone should assume it is okay to cause 'minor inconvenience' to anyone else on public transport. I'm a bit that you think it is okay to cause inconvenience to another passenger, however minor, if you are perfectly able-bodied and therefore have no reason to be causing inconvenience. Surely given the general inconveniences of public transport it should never be acceptable to cause someone else additiopal inconvenience just because you happen to have procreated and haven't had the foresight to buy something suitable for the journey. Unintended inconvenience, fair enough - but getting on assuming it is okay to cause someone an inconvenience? That's pretty selfish...

In Edinburgh there's a strict rule that if a wheelchair user needs the space, the buggy or pram user needs to vacate it, either by folding the buggy or getting off. It's a wheelchair space, not a buggy space.

Also, there's strictly one unfolded buggy allowed per bus, none of this two buggies blocking the aisles.

I've never seen anybody fail to follow these simple rules.

Should also point out that this comment of SH's appeared in the diary section of the paper, ie where hard news is put aside for musings on life. So it's hardly lazy journalism or an attack on mothers, it's just the guy's own thoughts on the size of modern buggies. Not a campaign or anything.

I have a theory that only lazy internet users use the term lazy journalism

Mums with small babies tend to be especially frazzled, and absorbed in their own darlings.

Yeah.maybe

But you know what - when mine were little, I used to fold going on the bus. As a matter of course. Cos I had thought this through.

If I could now, I would.

I can't - dd2 CAN'T stand!

I feel even more sorry for people like Riven - with a quadraplegic dd (the same age as mine - I give thanks for my dd's overall health a lot!!!) who have no option.

I think that people are jsut more selfish than they used to be!

And Firmwala, your post is exceptionally offensive. What if the only option on the bus was my disabled dd (in a buggy, not an obvious wheelchair) or you and your thing? (what is a P&T anyway - and FGS why can't you fold it!!!!)

There are a lot of us out there with no choice. Mums with perfectly healthy babies have a choice. There are a lot out there who are not exercising it. I know - I get on buses a lot. Full of Firwalas.

I don't own a pram and have just enough space in my Ergo's pocket for a small cloth to polish my civic halo at regular intervals....

doris ... I'd polish it for you!

If I wasn't holding a screaming 6yo on one hip while falling over, looknig for other 2 kids and holding on to a buggy we got from OT whose "staying closed" clip doesn't work ......

hahahaha. yeah wait until I have another kid.

I just find wraps and slings easier for me as I go on public transport most days and my overland train station has a flight of 30 stairs and no lifts.

And it helps that my daughter is a 10th centile 15 monther.

But yes, have occasionally felt smug on a bus or the tube, but that's payback for all the hard schlepping with a bucking baby and two shopping bags in the drizzle

Not sure why there's a need to fold whenever getting on a bus. if there's a space and no wheelchair users (and the intention to fold/get off if one comes along), then why not park a buggy in it? when out in south london with my 2 year old and 20lb 4 month old i usually have one in lightweight maclaren and one in sling/holding my hand and don't think it's unreasonable/selfish for me to remain with unfolded buggy. recently we fitted in behind a wheelchair and then alongside a double buggy when the wheelchair user got off and everyone was very happy and friendly all round. much more annoying are the people who want to stand next to the buggy area rather than proceeding up the aisle and out of the way of everyone getting on. i frequently am the only one moving out of the way despite trying to hang onto 2 year old's hand and the buggy. the non-buggy-users seem even more oblivious and uncaring about inconveniencing people!

slings are great, whilst you have one child, and they are relatively light (i sling carried DD at 5months for 3 hours or more..then backpack - but backpack less easy round shops). when you have two babies that are really not up to doing a stomp round town, or if you are planning a longer day with a heavier baby - then a pushchair is really more practical.

the space is adequate just about for 2 pushchairs one on each side, or one pushchair and one wheelchair (there is only one wheelchair-appropriate back rest thing though) on our local buses. I don't mind a bit of wiggling to get past them - Live and let live! I agree it is not always practical to take a tiny folding pushchair (you can't put a small baby in a bone-rattler, and for winter you want something that at least has a rain hood - not to mention space for stowng shopping rather than dangling it precariously on the handles)

maybe the real problem is the buses don't run often enough, and are therefore too crowded for anyone to be comfortable?

Simon Hoggart should GO UPSTAIRS AND STOP CLOGGING UP THE DOWNSTAIRS BIT OF THE BUS like all other able-bodied, unencumbered people should. And if there is no room upstairs, he should wait outside in the cold until a bus comes along that DOES have room upstairs.

exactly plantsitter!

Yes I too would definitely get off or fold the buggy if a wheelchair user wanted to get on. I think most people would.... wouldn't they?
Weegiemum, a P&T is a Phil and Teds buggy
(i think) kind of a three wheel thing where one child is slung underneath.

Bring back the bus conductor, thats what I say, they could monitor the wheelchair area and give judgemental journalists short shrift. AND you would be able to buy your ticket whilst sat in your seat, what bliss, especially when they used the windy up machine thingy. Anyone remember those?

What's the big problem with folding a pushchair, and why the hell don't people buy a pushchair that is appropriate for their lifestyle?

I have an umbrella fold pushchair/stroller, BECAUSE it is easy to fold. It fits a baby car seat in it, so the baby can face you.

If I got on a bus when DD or DS were very small, I would unclip the baby seat, put it on the floor next to the seat, fold the pushchair and put it in the luggage area, and then rest the car seat on the bus seat next to me. When DCs were older and could stand, I didn't bother with the car seat, and just folded the pushchair.

Big pushchairs are perfect in certain situations, but not for getting public transport. And once your kids are
6m+ there's no excuse, as you can buy a stroller for about £30.

"What's the big problem with folding a pushchair, and why the hell don't people buy a pushchair that is appropriate for their lifestyle?"

I did. It doesn't fold easily. I use the bus and tube a lot, have a bad back and the Cam is appropriate for my lifestyle (see my previous posts). I get off the bus if a wheelchair user needs the space. I don't get on if there are two buggies in the space, or if the bus is packed. Is that ok with you, Undercovamutha?

"If I got on a bus when DD or DS were very small, I would unclip the baby seat, put it on the floor next to the seat, fold the pushchair and put it in the luggage area, and then rest the car seat on the bus seat next to me. When DCs were older and could stand, I didn't bother with the car seat, and just folded the pushchair."

I deliberately chose a pram in which the baby could lay flat until 6 months, as I cannot bear to see babies squashed into the car seat attachment you describe.

"Big pushchairs are perfect in certain situations, but not for getting public transport. And once your kids are
6m+ there's no excuse, as you can buy a stroller for about £30."

My Cam is perfect for negotiating London Transport, thanks all the same. 'Excuse?' Will a note from my mum do? I'm not sure who you think I should send my 'excuse' to anyway...

"But why can't you get a lovely umbrella fold maclaren that is parent-facing? There is no way my dd would have put up with not being able to see me in the early months so I would have taken up little space but have a screaming baby instead. Believe me, that REALLY makes people tut!
"

no but you would have been expected to have the buggy folded, and therefore the problem would be gone, you surely could positioned her on your lap so she could see you?"

So she would just be crying in the street when I was pushing her, then. Actually, I do have a folding one now she's bigger. Have never once folded it on the bus. As with my bigger buggy, I've used it politely and have not blocked aisles with it. Seems the problem really is how you use it not whether your pushchair is big or not. Just like not all SUV drivers plough down cyclists and crush children against their bull bars. My 'big' pushchair actually fits rather neatly on the wheelchair/buggy space on a bus. If space is full of other buggies I don't get on, if a wheelchair user needs it I get off. The light small one is actually easier for me to get on and off bus but I can see my DD and chat to her more easily in big one, it's cosier and is better in snow or if I have to walk far, so if I decide on balance I'd rather use the tank, isn't that up to me?

I don't think Simon Hoggart should use a bus at all.

Could he be folded up and put in the luggage rack?

megonthemoon - what I mean is, if you are a perfectly able bodied passenger, and the biggest problem you have when using public transport is that when you get off the bus one day you have to turn sideways slightly, that's not really major is it?! And if you are the sort of person who would get annoyed about it, that's pretty sad.

Haven't read whole thread, only first page, will read rest after posting. Have to say weegiemum I completely agree wrt the mac major. When DS2 6yo is having a bad day, he is not capable of walking at all. So he will be in his mac major. I've even had BUS DRIVERS ask me to fold the mac major for a buggy with a walking toddler in. When I have refused (bearing in mind that I've had to PAY for DS2 to use the bus, they charge from 5yo in my area, and no disabled passes till 16yo), the looks I've got, and tuts and huffs. Once I lost it a little and turned round to the whole bus and rather loudly said "he is unable to walk at all, which one of you is going to HOLD my 6yo while I fold his DISABILITY pushchair up"??? Funnily enough, there were no takers and I sat down. The lady with the toddler folded her mini tank pushchair and the toddler walked right to the back of the bus. Grrrrrrrr....

However, I feel bound to point out that I have folded my mac major when wheelchairs have got on. Or got off the bus if DS2 is unable to manage even a few steps that day. Yet these mums with thier monster prams don't. There's also the perfectly able bodied adults who sit in the wheelchair/buggy space when there's seats at the back, and won't move when a buggy or wheelchair is trying to get on the bus. I've got a gob in my head though, and will come over all judgypants and say, look, it's raining, this lady's got a buggy/in a wheelchair there's seats at the back/an aisle to stand in...NOW MOVE!! >

In fact, was very proud of DS1 7yo last week, he got up on a full bus to let a lovely old dear sit down. With no prompting, totally off his own back. Not one adult made the effort (I was already standing so couldn't).

Apoologies in advance for typos in this post - writing on iPhone during night feed!
I spent months researching buggies because I have to get London buses all the time. I opted for a microlite toro travel system which can fold with one hand brilliantly once in pushchair mode for exactly this reason. Plus it gives me the option to use a lie flat bassinet or a car seat onthe journeys when it's appropriate to do so. I always expected I'd end up adding a cheap umbrella fold to my collection of stuff once DS is old enough to sit in one. However, many of the posts above refer to babies 6 months+. As far as I know, I am not able to sit my 6 week old in the pushchair bit yet and I couldn't find an umbrella fold that would have been ok for a 6 week old when I did my research. I have been on the bus loads in the last 6 weeks but have avoided busy times, have found my buggy really manouvreble in pram or car seat mode and so far not got in anyone else's way. However, today I have to go to Oxford st (and believe me I would rather not!) coming back at rush hour. So people, what pram/buggy/stroller should I have bought that would be ok for my 6 week old to cause less inconvenience for others and myself, or should I just opt for the sling (and is a 6 week old going to be ok in that for several hours? It's a baby bjorn) and what age really can I put my DS into the pushchair or an umbrella fold? These are genuine questions - I wish this thread has been going when I was trying to find a london-appropriate buggy 3 months ago!

And OP, YANBU because several of the things SH says are idiotic as outline by others above, but I do also agree with others that som people don't make the best choice of baby transport for their lifestyle and are swayed by brand alone. However it is really really tricky to find a good option for London for a small baby as I know only too well!