To think Simon Hoggart could have got up and helped this "fraught and harrassed looking woman" instead of just feeling sorry for her.

[bumpyboo]

This is what Simon Hoggart wrote in Saturdays' Guardian.

"Baby buggies seem to get steadily bigger, so that if you're behind two mums having a chat, it's like being blocked on a motorway while one gigantic truck edges past another at a total speed of half a mile an hour.

The other day two of these vast things, like scaled-down SUVs, were wheeled on to a packed bus I was in. The first juggernaut occupied all the space provided for strollers, so the other had to block the whole aisle, making it impossible for other passengers to move.

That mother looked fraught and harassed, and I felt sorry for her, but it didn't occur to either of them to get off and wait for a less crowded bus"

Err maybe you could have got up and helped her fold the buggy Simon?
I've sometimes waited for ages in London for a bus with space for a buggy so when one comes you usually have to get on it and when you've got a baby its pretty hard to fold the thing up and hold the baby as well especially on a crowded moving bus.
Here's the link if anyone wants to look.

www.guardian.co.uk/theguardian/2010/feb/06/climate-change-simon-hoggarts-week

Weegiemum - I am intrigued re: your DDs treatment. By brother has/had Perthes and basically spent from the age of 5 to 12 in 'frog plasters' - and ran around like a loon! Which did the job until he was about 30 when he spent 12 weeks in traction which didn't do whatever it was supposed to so got his first hip at 31- that one is still going at the moment but beginning to cause problems. He is however hoping to get another 2 to 3 years before his next and probably last one.

gomez - the treatments have changed a lot over the last 10 years or so! They now think that weight bearing on the regenerating bone causes malformation and so walking, running, especially jumping, are all severely restricted, but if the child co-operates there is no need for plasters/traction etc.

We've been very lucky actually. Perthes is more common in the West of Scotland than almost anywhere in the world, and the consultant dd2 started out with (he just retired) is one of the best in the world - as he saw so much of it! His replacement is pretty good too!

Actually I realise that me moaning on about this sort of thing is nothing really. I have no idea what it must be like to have a child with complex needs in a wheelchair or buggy, or a child with an asd who can't be taken out of the buggy or there will be a total meltdown (have a friend in this situation). And there you are confronted with smirking mums of 6 mo perfectly healthy babies who expect you to fold your buggy (and don't even offer you a seat when you have a large child you have to hold on your hip - my back is not what it was!!!).

I'm sorry, I hate these big buggies and the way they restrict our mobility. Maybe I should speak to the bus companies - cos its always us that the driver asks to fold up!!! Cos our buggy - for a child up to 45kg!!! - is smaller than one with a little baby in it!

Off I go, to moan about this on Special Needs (though I feel I have no right, everyone else on there has it much worse then me, we have a temporary disability, not the things the fabulous ladies over there have to deal with every day!).

Simon Hoggart on a bus?

When I know I'll have to use public transport I use the sling - everything else is a nightmare.

Bah, I'm one of those mums with a "huge buggy" (Stokke Xplory) and make no apologies. I mean, everyone notices me on the bus. What they don't know is

1. In the pouring rain, I've waited for at least 2 buses to go past which no-one would have been able to fit ANY pushchair on because they were fairly full at off-peak time and the usual numpties passengers refuse to move one step from the door/buggy/wheelchair space even when there are seats at the back of the bus

1. I got on the third bus, but got off when I saw lots of people waiting to get on a few stops later and figured I'd give them the standing/shopping bag space

1. I then waited for yet one more bus to go past, which was also full

1. I flagged down the next bus just behind which was practically empty and the driver clocked me and STILL drove straight past me as to open the back doors would obviously require a Herculean effort

1. I then get on the SIXTH bus which has loads of room, only to be tutted at by all and sundry (the purple rinse brigade, more often than not) at how selfish I'm being

I have now decided that the next person to tut at me about my buggy will get a nice big fat wheel ram-rollered over their foot on my way out!

Asana

If you want to get on a bus, get a smaller buggy!

Really!!!!

If your baby was born 5 years ago, you would not have had this option!!!

Either fold, or get something more bus friendly!!!

Widowwadman - this what I did - every time!

But I think that anyone would agree - I cannot carry a disabled 6yo in a sling any more!!!!!!! My back is a precious part of my anatomy that I can no longer sacrifice (and I carried all of mine in a sling then backpack - despite 3 under 4 I never had a double buggy - until dd2 was 3, when she finally got too heavy!)

i don't live in London, so can someone explain to me about 'buggy spaces?' I live in West Yorkshire and we have disabled spaces; if there is no disabled person on the bus, a buggy can be put in the disabled space. I cannot understand why anyone would leave a buggy unfolded if someone with a disability got on the bus and needed the space.

I don't think buggies should be left up in an aisle. A (non-disabled) buggy that cannot be folded should not be on a bus. On our buses, 3 seats can be folded down if there is no disabled person on the bus. But parents get on and don't fold the buggy down. So their baby is taking up the space of 3 adults, who have to stand!

On the other hand, I think it is absurd for this journalist to say the women should just get off. It suggests women with children have nothing to do. She could have been on her way to work, or a hospital appointment.

MillyR - 'buggy spaces' are exactly as you describe - wheelchair spaces that can be used by buggies if no wheelchairs are on board. But lots of people now see them as 'bugg spaces' and therefore don't seem to countenance the fact that they might be required to fold their buggy on the bus. Some people seem to become very self-centred when they have a baby and think these spaces are purely for them, as weegiemum seems to be experiencing first hand.

If you can afford a Stokke, Asana, then I think you can probably afford the sling or umbrella-fold buggy that would make your life much easier when travelling on public transport...

I think we need to have better awareness of disability, so that people with a disability or with a child with a disability do not have to go around announcing it to random strangers.

I don't think the parent of a disabled child should have to speak to some women who have left their buggy unfolded on a bus - she should speak to the driver and he should deal with them.

Drivers don't though!!

When my kids were 6mo, yes I was tired. yes I was up once or twice a night!! Aren't we all?

But I still always folded my (small) buggy for a larger disabled one or a wheelchair! I've seen drivers having to ask a Big Buggy Mummy to fold in order to allow a wheelchair user on to the bus.

Maybe folk in Glasgow are more selfish - not my normal experience though!

I think that people should think through their daily lives before they choose to buy some mega 4x4 buggy that is going to disrupt everyone else. But clearly many people don't do that!!!

Gah, I'm with Asana.

I have a Cam which I bought specifically for using on public transport; I don't drive and I have a bad back so can't carry a buggy up and down tube stairs- the back wheels are ideal for bumping up and down steps.

I have not once had a problem on the bus- if there's two buggies in the space, don't get on; if there's one, get on, two buggies fit in the space; if a wheelchair user gets on, get off. I don't see the problem.

Mind you, I also have a huge 70s Silver Cross pram, so the Cam seems remarkably compact compared to that...

The thing is - I agree with him. Why do people who regularly use public transport have massive prams?

I have a heavy pram, but rarely use the tube. If I do have to, I use a sling, or our very cheap, small, lightweight pram.

Seriously - even if you don't want to spend the money on a McLaren, why not just pick up a cheap-as-chips jobbie from Argos, for just this sort of thing. It's barely going to set you back £30.

I feel awful blocking people and inconveniencing people, and eternally grateful if someone offers to help me up or down the steps. Other people seem to just think this is some sort of God-given right, and everyone else should accommodate them.

HOWEVER...

His comment about it not even occurring to the women to wait for the next bus is too self-absorbed for words.

Maybe this is the 3rd or 4th bus that came along, or maybe they need to be someone at a certain time. He is clearly assuming they are just out joy-riding on the buses, and can't possibly have somewhere to be, unlike important old him. And how considerate of him - 'get off the bus I'm on, and inconvenience someone else, you stupid women'.

And what is that quip attributed to Margaret Thatcher? Anyone who finds themself on a bus over the age of 30 should consider themself a failure in life.

That's you, Simon.

But why can't you get a lovely umbrella fold maclaren that is parent-facing? There is no way my dd would have put up with not being able to see me in the early months so I would have taken up little space but have a screaming baby instead. Believe me, that REALLY makes people tut!

I don't think Simon was being unreasonable to not help - I used a quinny buzz when i didn't use a sling which is a bit of a tank of a pushchair but never expected anyone to help. A sympathetic smile and not villifying me in a national newspaper would suffice.

That said, my pushchair was pretty large but I could still fit it next to another large one in the buggy bay. The only problems I had were when people would block the aisles with luggage/shopping themsleves and then stare at me like when I said 'excuse me please'.

The big Silver Cross prams were huge - but people just didn't take them on buses. They had a little buggy for that purpose. The pram was for when walking.

Some of these new prams and pushchairs just can't fold easily. I am thinking of things like the Bugaboo, which has to have the cot bit removed before folding, etc.

When chosing a pushchair people need to think more abut what they will use it for and in which situations. And if you are to be using public transport a lot, you have to select a pushchair that olds easily. You can't assume you ca take them on unfolded - that space is designed for wheelchair users more than pushchairs.

Hulababy, you absolutely don't have to fold your pushchair to use public transport.

As I previously stated, I choose to get off the bus where others may fold a pushchair (especially if a wheelchair user needs the space)- the advantage the Cam has for me going up and down stairs far outweighs the advantages of having a folding buggy.

I'm not sure what you mean about the Silver cross pram- I wasn't implying that it could be taken on a bus! Besides which, the buses were all routemasters then, even less hope of getting a pram on . Silver Cross prams were designed to be left outside shops too, as you can't get them in many shops (believe me, I know...) Yet I still use mine when doing the food shopping- it's my car replacement

"But why can't you get a lovely umbrella fold maclaren that is parent-facing? There is no way my dd would have put up with not being able to see me in the early months so I would have taken up little space but have a screaming baby instead. Believe me, that REALLY makes people tut!
"

no but you would have been expected to have the buggy folded, and therefore the problem would be gone, you surely could positioned her on your lap so she could see you?

I bought a Mamas & Papas Joolz because according to the bullshit promotional material it folded easily into a compact shape and was narrower than most buggies and was rear facing so I wouldn't be damaging PFB's development having him the wrong way round.

It's still a fricking nightmare on a bus.
It's also a nightmare on the train. I could drive but in some way that would also make me a bad person.

Let's face it whatever you do as a mother someone will criticise you.

But I would fold or get off if a wheelchair user needed the space. Just so you know.

To be honest I've got a Maclaren pushchair, but I would still get black looks (and on one occassion a torrent of racial abuse) when I pushed it down the aisle of a bus to the central area (even when empty).

I think Simon Hoggart should use his privileged position as a well-paid columnist in a national broadsheet to discuss more important issues than his irritation at big prams. The prams in question weren't affecting him in any way (or anyone else much from what I can make out from his article), so why bang on about it?

I have been on trains and tubes with a small, umbrella fold buggy, and with a big carrycot pram. They were both equally awkward.

I am as entitled as anyone else to be on public transport, and, let's be honest, the worst possible outcome is mild inconvienience to other passengers. Hardly anything to get worked up about, given that travelling on public transport is full of inconvieniences. But yes, no matter what size your pushchair is, precedence should always be given to people in wheelchairs, or in specially adapted pushchairs. But that is a common courtesy issue - irrespective of the size of your pram.

I'm rather impressed at how many people say they woudl get off if a wheelchair needed the space.

My dd2's Maclaren Major is officially classed as a wheelchair. And is so much easier to push!!! (she has a wheelchair in school and I now take the buggy along on school trips as it is a LOT easier!)

Not in Glasgow, obviously. I have heard mums with huge prams commenting "well that child should be walking" when I get her on the bus.

I now say something every time I hear it. I have had "tutting" and once outright abuse from a mum with a baby in a bugaboo. Its like my dd is not entitled to be disabled (like it is any of ours fault!!!)

Like I say, if I have to, I can fold the Major and hold dd in my arms (for a short bus trip!! She's 6 and heavy!!). I have no idea how parents of permanently disabled children cope. I think its telling none of them have pitched up on this thread! Its too distressing for them, I suspect!

JemL - I wish everyone with pushchairs thought this.

They don't!

Yesterday I had to fold the pushchair with a crying (in severe pain) dd2, just to get home.

Luckily, she usually gets the school bus (and I meet it with the buggy ready for her) but yesterday I was accomodating an extra music lesson for dd1, and I had to fold while 2 mothers with awake, happy, no bother 6-8 month old kids took up the wheelchair spaces!

Sometimes, no matter than it does my back in, I am tempted to take the wheelchair on the bus, just to make them fold and see what life is like when you have no choice!