To insist my son leaves college?

[AlevelDevil]

My son is 16 and at college studying for his A Levels. He's doing Maths, English, Drama and Media Studies. He's bright (I know, everyone says their child is!) but lazy and almost every teacher he's ever had has said the same thing. It was a real struggle to get him to do his GCSE coursework and we regularly had calls and letters home asking us to make sure he got things done. He ended up in isolation for two days so that he could complete his English Literature coursework on time!

He started college in September last year so has only been going for about four months and so far we've had six letters home complaining that work is late and threatening him with "Non entry status". He doesn't differentiate, these are from all subjects, so it's not that he's struggling with just one. I'm not sure he's struggling at all though. It's not that he can't do the work. He just won't do it.

One of his teachers phoned me at home to say that she'd had complaints from another teacher about him messing about in class and being silly and she said that she had also had the same problems but had spoken to him and things had improved. She said that he was late with work in all subjects and could we talk to him about it. I said I would but that it would be pointless as he just denies everything the teachers say. eg: When I was told at parent's evening that he had been in isolation I rang him and he said he hadn't. The teacher was right infront of me and he said it wasn't true.

When the letters have arrived home from college complaining that work is late he says that they've got it now and that their system is slow. He denied messing around in class and said the teacher has him confused with someone else. The letter we received this morning said that he's not going to lessons. I haven't mentioned it to him yet as I know he'll say "They're confused!" and it's impossible to discuss something with someone who is denying the whole situation.

My partner says it's a waste of time him being there and that he should leave and get a job but my son wants to stay. I don't think he wants to stay because he wants to do the work though. He likes the social aspect of college life. He has much more freedom now that he is 16 and not at school and goes out straight after dinner most week day evenings and is out most of the weekends but I do try to insist he's home before 10.30pm. He also has a part time job but they only call when they need him so it's only ever a couple of Saturdays or Sundays a month.

We have said repeatedly that if he doesn't pull his socks up then he'll have to leave the college but he says we want to ruin the rest of his life by not letting him do A Levels but his report put him on course for D grades and that's only if he isn't given the "Non entry status" threatened!

Is it reasonable to think that at some point we say enough is enough and at what point do we say it?

I think though there is a huge difference in how little work you can get away with doing for GCSE's and how much you need to do for A levels.
My ds found GCSE's a walk in the park tbh, did no homework and completed all coursework in school in fact only ever took a pen in his pocket to school and still got 12 good GCSE's.
He found it a huge shock to the system when he started AS levels at how much responsibility and motivation had to come from himself because his sixth for expected them to direct their own learning.
For that reason for the first term up until exams in January it was compulsory to attend full time, then those failing in January were kicked out.It was seeing friends being asked to leave that gave him the kick up the bum he needed tbh and he knuckled down then.
Just knowing that he faced the real prospect of having to stack shelves to pay his way was all the incentive he needed.

Thanks for the replies.

Have just had a chat with him and said that there's no going out on week nights. His bus arrives at roughly 4.40pm so I'd like him home by 5.30. It does stop outside the door but he gets off in town with his friends which is fine but he must be back here by 5.30pm.

I've said the 10.30pm home time at weekends is absolutely non negiotiable and that if he's late he can't go out the next two weekends. There's a foam party at a club coming up mid Feb which he asked recently if he could go to and after saying I'd think about it I've now said no. (Another matter I know but what do you think about 16+ year olds going to a foam party? I remember seeing one on one those Brits Abroad type programmes last year and they were all half dressed and I didn't feel comfortable about him going but of course "everyone else is allowed to go" so I said I'd think about it.)

I told him that I'm going to try to arrange a meeting at the college so we were all aware of just how much work he should be doing at home and that the deadline for improvement is April when he'll be 17. I said that if things are improving then we'll talk about a later coming home time but if there's no improvement then it'll be time to leave.

I asked if he still wanted to be a film director and he shrugged. I asked what Uni he was hoping to get into and again he shrugged. I feel a bit sad for him really as he hasn't etablished a goal so he doesn't know what he's working towards. He's a bit Facebook obsessed but he accesses it on his phone (Which is surgically attached to the palm of his hand. He sleeps with it in his hand and only uses one piece of cutlery at a time because to use both a knife and fork would mean putting the phone down) so there's not a lot I can do about it as he paid for the phone himself and buys his own credit. I think we might have to talk about his phone being switched off while he does homework though. Again, I hope the college will help when discussing this.

PfftTheMagicDragon ~ I am surprised that college chase him for work and even more so that they write and phone me. At 16 he should be self motivating but the more they involve me and chase him themselves the less likely he'll be to sort himself out. I haven't yet been to a college parent's evening but will not go without him!

MrsC2010 ~ Unfortunately he's not entitled to EMA.

Could you say that if he doesn't buck up his ideas you will send him back to school? College is supposed to be much more about independence - I guess given his GCSE messing about it is hardly surprising that he is struggling. I think that you have to see it like that. Your ds is bright and capable, but clearly has no self discipline. That's a skill too, and in some ways a much more vital one than academic ability. A levels are much much harder than GCSEs (I found my degree easier too). I suspect that your ds is under the delusion that he can get through them doing the minimum, and he will get a nasty shock.

So I think if you know the other parents talking to them might be an idea. Seeing the school counselor might be worth while, and going in together to discuss his difficulties (and making it very plain that you see them as very significant) with his tutors too. It also is worth checking that he is doing subjects that really engage him (although that doesn't sound like the problem). Sixteen is just not a responsible age - in some ways it is very unfair giving sixteen year olds too much autonomy (at least in things that might screw up their lives).

Agree with you totally Nooka re 16 just not being a very responsible age. It's a bit of a no man's land as school is over and you can legally leave home if you want to but then you still have parents telling you what time to be in and asking about homework. I don't think we could send him back to school though. What would he do there? To be honest, I think most of his teachers were pleased to see the back of him! Self discipline is definitely lacking and something that he needs to sort out or get some help with. He is just doing the minimum he can do to keep the teachers off his back. They set some work and a date to have it in by. He doesn't do the work so they chase him up about it. He gives them an excuse so they give him a later deadline. Sometimes he gets it to them and other times he doesn't so they contact me. I talk to him and he says that they have it and he doesn't know why they've written or called.

I'm really itching to get a meeting organised now because I feel like I'm fighting the college corner here but without all the facts and figures. I say that there must be some work he could be getting on with after college and he says there isn't. I think he's lying but he gets cross when I suggest that he's not telling me the full truth. I just need someone who knows what they're talking about to say he should be doing x, y and z and then I can make sure he's doing it.

Thank you all again for all the replies and suggestions.

My DH was just like your son - he loved the social side of college but was a lazy arse. At the end of his first year he changed three of his four subjects. By the end of the second year he was told he could sit his a-level but was not welcome back the next year to complete the others.

Luckily, my Mum saw an advert for late placement at a local university, dialled the number and handed him the phone and he got his degree with just the one a-level. Luckily he was scared enough of my Mum to take the phone off her and attend the interview (his parents were on holiday at the time).

No advice I'm afraid, but just wanted to say not to give up on him. Good luck.

Thanks LilRedWG. I'm sure we'll look back on this in a year or two and wonder why we were all so upset. Things do usually tend to sort themselves out and I'm feeling better about it now as I have a plan of action.

I think you must ignore cries of "everyone else does it". It is not relevant to you or your DS. Tell him you are not interested in hearing what other people are doing. Maybe they do all go, maybe they don't, maybe they are allowed if they work hard, maybe their parents don't give a shit, who knows? I would be tempted to tell him that once his grades are up and he is performing well, he can go to all the foam parties he likes.

I agree it is a difficult age, they are tempted to throw the "I'll leave home, I'm an adult, I can do what I want" line in your face but yet it is patently untrue that he is showing signs of this when his college are calling his mother to tell him off for not doing his homework!

I would ask him if he thinks the two line up - being chased around for incomplete homework and going out to clubs as if you are an adult?

To come away from the adult side of things, I remember being this old (only 13 years ago) and I remember starting A levels, feeling rather lost. I had done well at GCSE's though with no real work and was not used to putting in hard graft. I had no idea what I wanted to do with my life and felt like I was expected to, the thoughts of applying to university was just so overwhelming. I was starting to discover the social side of things. TBH, what I needed was someone to be strict with me. You don't need to be unreasonable. I don't think that saying no socialising on weeknights and less priviledges until his work improves is unreasonable.

You cannpt control him, but do not let him control you!

Just asked DH what would have worked for hi - what his parents could have said and unfortunately he said, "nothing". Towards the end of his second year I do remember the panic setting in with him that he'd be a barman forever.

He did say however, that the earlier idea from someone to give him a cut off date to improve and then incentives for every improvement should work as well as anything.

HTH.

To go back to the original question "AIBU to insist that my son leaves college?" the answer is a very loud YES.

Neither you nor DP should force him to leave because then he can blame you for the rest of his life for his aborted academic career.
Give him all the support (that he will accept) but make sure that he suffers the consequences of his (in)actions - it is the only way that he will learn.
It will be better to crash & burn now, at home where you can pick up the pieces, than when he is away at Uni.

While I can't comment too much on college (I left school after three months of AS and got a job), I can say that if he wants to be a film director he needs to get up of his backside and knuckle down, or change tack. My sister harbours similar ambitions, and after a gap year aged 16 spent doing, frankly, sod all, got a place in college for a media BTEC. It was bl**dy hard work, and the projects involved took up most of her free time. There was certainly no going out every night of the week and then at the weekends too.

Getting into media takes a lot of networking as well as good grades; you have to know the right people, and you don't meet them while chilling with friends. Making contacts is vital - has he put any thought into getting some work experience over the next couple of years? Or what he's going to pad out his personal statement with so he actually gets a place at Uni? Competision is fierce for places now, and he'll need to stand out. You've said already that he seems dithery about the future, so you need to confront him with it now. In one year he'll need to fill out UCAS forms if he wants to carry on with this - media isn't something you waltz into and perhaps a realisation that the 'easy' careers usually take twice the dedication to succeed in will make him at least think about the future. Yes, anyone can point a camera and make a low budget film for YouTube these days, but the people who make money doing it are the people who work really really hard. if he's doing this because it's a nice easy ride he needs to think again. And perhaps realising that will help him out of this rut of bullshitting and evasion he's in right now. Look up a few of the requirements for Uni courses at places like Lincoln and the University of London for Film Studies and related courses, and when you have the joint meeting with his college mention his ambition and get them to back you up. At 16 everything seems possible, particularly the more glamorous careers, but he has to learn that in the media industry, the ones who don't work hard are the ones who never make it and end up doing other things.

It sounds like he's got this ambition because on the face of it it's simple. He needs to understand that it's not, and that nothing in life is like the movies. Lazy kids don't magically get a 'break'.

Can I ask where he gets the money from to pay for his phone? has he got a job?

"He does have a job but at the moment they just call when they need him. We don't give him any spending money (We just don't have it to spare) but he helps DP out at work sometimes and earns himself £40.00 a time so he tends to ask if he can help out when he's broke which we don't mind."

"He does have a job but at the moment he's emergency weekend staff only. He was there full time in the Summer though so hopefully they'd be able to offer him full time work if he did leave the college."

sorry is this two people or one?

I'd explain to him that you are prepared to support him until the end of his a levels. But you won't support him beyond that. So it's up to him if he wants to use his time to get good a level grades and go to university. If he doesn't want to carry on with education then he can either get a job (which may not be a great job, given poor a levels) or he can fend for himself in a bedsit on unemployment benefit. His life. His choice

TottWriter ~ I have said that it'll be hard work. I don't think he realises that only a few directors are actually making big money. I think he thinks he's going to sit in a chair and order Tom Cruise around once he leaves Uni.

Senua ~ I know you're right. He will blame us forever if we insist he leaves college but how long do we allow him to do nothing? I'm hoping that setting a deadline for seeing vast improvements that's backed up by the college will shock him into getting back on track. I hope they'll take a serious stance with him and tell him that they want to see major changes or they'll ask him to leave at the end of the academic year.

IvyKaty44 ~ He does have a job but at the moment it's just the odd Saturday or Sunday here and there. They basically call him when a regular isn't in. He has contacted them and asked if he can work over the coming half term and they said they'll let him know. He also works the odd day here and there with my DP and gets £40.00.

This sounds so like me at 16-18.

I wanted to be a teacher (I still do) so at the time, as far as I was prepared to look into it, the route involved A levels and then university. I hated school though and was a bit of a nightmare with regard to coursework/homework deadlines. I was in detention every night for about 3 months in the run up to the my GCSEs.

I enrolled at college to do 3 A levels in my favourite school subjects but still hated it. Was thrown out after the first term. Was allowed back the following year but it was still too much like school so dropped out.

I then decided to go into childcare, so again, went and enrolled at a different college. Working with children was my dream (although I wanted to be a teacher rather than a Nursery Nurse). I loved the work part of it but hated going to college. I got kicked out again. My parents were despairing of me and eventually made me get a job. I hated working in an office, so managed to talk them into letting me go back to college (for the 4th time ). My dad had given up on the support and was quite vocal in how I'd never complete it. I had to fund travel, lunch, books etc myself.

I got kicked out for the final time when I was 18. It took me until 2005 to finally qualify in something (nursery nurse at long last!) but I went down the vocational route with just one day a month at college.

I am now 28 and am in my last year of my early years degree. I have to go to college twice a week, but I work too, so it's not too bad. I still don't actually like going to college, but I can recognise now that it is a means to an end.

I just think if I had knuckled down and got on with it between 16-18, I would have been qualified for ages and would probably have had my degree before my kids (which would have been better tbh).

AlevelDevil ~ I think there's a quote somewhere from Steven Spielberg where he says how hard he had to work to get anywhere, and pretty much any Hollywood director will say the same thing. I know it's a faint hope, but perhaps confronting him with the real world examples will buck his ideas up. My sister runs her own webcomic from a server she hosts - she's read them for years, but it wasn't until she had to follow the deadlines and do the graft herself that she really understood what it was all about. When she did work experience at a TV studio (courtesy of a step-uncle 'in the business', it has to be said,) she was set to work fetching coffee and lunch - a bit of a reality check when she realised that more or less everyone there had started out in the same way. From what you've said, I really don't know how much that would convince him - he seems more than a little stubborn in his laziness, but encouraging him to look for work experience like that can't hurt. It certainly sounds very glamorous at first to do work experience in a TV studio, and he mightn't realise until he gets there what it actually entails. (My sister had to get a train up to London every day for a week to do it, so it gave her a taste of a real-world commute, too!)

If nothing else though, I would make it clear that you won't be going to the college begging them to give him a second chance when they get fed up with him. Sixteen is an awkward age, but don't feel that this is his only chance. It might actually be better if you simply let him screw this up; the blame is then completely on him, and he can always reapply elsewhere for September. You don't have to start Uni at 18/19. Make it clear that if he gets booted out he will not be sitting around at home all day, and nor will you be helping him out by letting him do odd jobs for cash on a more regular basis than you are now. Threatening to cut off what is a simple route to money (yes he works for it, which is an improvement on lots of teenagers, but he doesn't have to put in regular hours or go through an interview to work for your DP for a day) might give him a greater incentive to do something positive with his life.

Ivykaty44, A leveldevil answered the question of 'Does he have a job' twice already in the thread, so I copied both and posted.
Then the doorbell rang and I hit post without explaining what I'd done, sorry.

He seems very immature and the one thing that springs out is that he has no idea what he wants to do in life and therefore no goal and no motivation. I would first of all make an appointment for both of you with a careers counsellor at Connexions I found them very good and they don't rush you. Find the local office.
I would list all the letters and phone calls that you have had from college and make an appointment to see someone with your DS. A'level is a big step up from GCSEs and you can't just breeze through it without effort. I know that the step up in Maths is huge.
Maybe he simply isn't ready for A'levels-perhaps he could have a gap year now and start again in September-a spell in the real world may well make him see the value of further education.

Sometimes bright kids need to be allowed to fail to realise that the world won't be handed to them on a plate.

I think you've done the right thing, but right now you should leave it in his hands as he's on the cusp of adulthood

Just a thought - you say that he was in the Gifted & Talented groups until GCSE - was he lazy then or did it start when he got to GSCE?

The only reason I ask is that you say that you've got a 3yo in the house - so am I right in thinking that this one was born about the same time as your DS started GCSE's?

Could it be that since the arrival of a sibling he's feeling like he gets less attention? I'm not saying that this answers your problem, but it might be worth considering how the relationships have changed at home.

But, YABU to insist that he leaves college - it removes responsibility for his own actions and allows him to blme you.

Thank you for the link Piscesmoon. He is aware of Connexions as he spoke to them a few times at school. I've no idea what was said though and he's a bit of a Kevin the Teenager at times so when you ask him how things went. You get a mumbled "Yeah, alright." but it might be worth trying to get him to talk to them again (With me present if he's happy with that) now that he's getting closer to Uni.

I did say that maybe doing the A Levels now just isn't the right time for him and that he doesn't have to stay in college. That he could work for a year or so and then go back to it when he felt ready but he says he wants to stay in college. Anyway, I told him he'd had a good run of avoiding doing the work and filling his social diary but it had come to an end and that there had to be some changes. I reminded him that we've given him a lot more freedom since his 16th birthday so it's his turn to make some changes too.

Activate ~ Thank you for replying. I think you're right about letting him take a tumble. He always seems to pull the grades out of the bag at the last minute so I think he thinks he's infallible. As far as leaving it in his hands goes I wish I could but the calls and letters ask me to speak to him and make it clear that X, Y and Z won't be tolerated. I speak to him yet he denies that work is late or that he's been messing around in class so it's frustrating.

Tegid ~ Thanks for replying. The Gifted and Talented groups stopped at GCSE level in his school. I think it's so students can concentrate fully on their new workload. I understand your point about things changing at home with a new baby in the house and of course attention has to be divided but he already had a younger brother (There's 3.6 years between them) and a stepbrother (He was 7 when DS3 was born) so it wasn't a completely new scenario that he had to get used to. He doesn't get on with DS2 at all and they come to blows now and again but he adores DS3 so I don't think there's any jealousy issues or competition for attention. Agree totally with your last sentence and I don't want to take him out of the college it's just that 'if things don't alter then they'll stop as they are' (Silly saying that my Dad used to use but apt I think). We can't just keep coasting along with no progress being made.

I'm going to phone the college tomorrow and will update you.

Thank you again to everyone that has taking the time to post a reply.

*taken the time to reply aswell.