The prospect of Mum and Dad dying is bad enough without being asked to finish them off?

[sweetnsour]

Terry Pratchett and co are calling for assisted suicide to be legalised. I entirely support his right to die in the face of an appalling illness (dementia). But I object to the apparently seamless assumpation the campaigners make that it's the sick person's relations/family who get to 'perform the act' - ie the killing itself, with/without the family GP.

Acquiring the right to die is one thing. But having the right to ask someone else to kill you?

Doing it would be ghastly for the people left behind and, on top of the burden of grief, could damage them very badly.

I have not read all of this thread.

I am in agreeance of assisted suicide/euthinasia. Having watched my dad suffer for 3 months and then be murdered by a nurse making a mistake would i have ended his life earlier if he had asked me? yes i would have.

My nan was ill for a few weeks, and my mum had said if she thought the medication she was on would have helped her go quicker, rather than suffer for as long as she did then she would have given her the pills.

Watching one of your parents dying slowly is the worst thing in the world.

Strangely I am rather against the medicalisation of death. I would much rather be attended by a family member than a doctor in my final hours. Terry Pratchetts dream of ending his life in his garden with a brompton cocktail on a sunny day with birdsong and his favorite music playing sounds much nicer to me than some gruesome swiss clinic.

I had home births with my children and I would want a similar "home death".

I am not keen on doctors and I wouldn't want one to be making huge decisions about my life.

Such an interesting and thought-provoking thread.

My experience of loved ones with terminal illnesses makes me think clarifying the law on assisted suicide is a good thing and, personally, I would help someone I loved to escape the horrible pain if they asked me to. But I don't know what's for the best.

My (very bizarre but completely lovely) Dad told me to promise (when I was around ten FGS) that if he ever got senile and it was time to put him in a home that I would, instead, shoot him.

He was sooooo not joking.

But I couldn't do it, I know I couldn't. MAybe to save someone I loved from terrible pain, but I just don't think I could.

I'm so glad most people think I'm not BU - I go cold at the thought of getting involved in the cat's death, let alone anyone else's, let alone my family's.

But the census seems to be that, regardless of who does it, assisted dying is sometimes by far the most compassionate way forward.

So if Terry Pratchett & co want 'tribunals' to look at the 'cases' in advance, d'you think the tribunals should protect the family's interest as well as the sick person's?

What if the DW/DH/DC can't face doing it? Or are the fasmily being selfish - should the rellies just put themselves second and go along with whatever the sick person says they want?

"should the rellies just put themselves second and go along with whatever the sick person says they want?"

Yes, of course they should (IMO!). Sometimes you have to put the wishes and needs of others above your own.

Someone-I-love's intolerable (to them) suffering v my squeamishness and sadness? No contest.

I would not let a family pet suffer so why would I let a family member suffer against their own wishes?

I think making this a family responsibility is appalling. This is a job for a physician.

My Grandmother asked me to put the pillow over her face and "let her go" when she was very ill. I couldn't do it but I thought about it a lot because I loved her so much. Six years later I still go through that scene in my head but I know deep down that I still couldn't

I am so sorry to all the posters who have had to endure the painful loss of a loved one. There is no other experience like it and it lives with you for ever.

Like MissM's brother, my DD had a 'good' death. We had excellent palliative care. Wonderful nurses who knew her well, her pain was finally as under control as it could be, she was with us, it was peaceful.

But the last days were an awful limbo of uncertainty and fear. We didnt know what to expect, I was terrified that she may be distressed and the spectere (sp) of that awful agony that she had been in hung over us.

I knew what I would do, I knew how I would do it. I knew it was utterly and totally the right thing and I would have put up with any punishment to do it. Because it was the last thing I could have done for my beautiful girl. She was dying, she wasnt going to get better. Why prolong the suffering for a few more hours or days?

I was lucky that I didnt have to make that decision. I know my OH had thought of it too. But it was harder for him. He would never have forgiven himself. I had been much more involved in her care up to then. I had kept much of the suffering from him and eveyone else. I didnt want others to have those images in their heads. I couldnt bear to see her suffer anymore for what? There was no cure and she was ready to go.

When you see a child who is so brave and so dignified you have to set new standards for yourself.

Its not something that everyone should have to deal with and circumstances are different.

I do think it very different for adults who want their grown children to assist.

I sat by my stepdads hospital bed for two weeks. If there had been ten minutes when someone else wasn't there I would have done it. I thought about it all the time as he lay there, his organs failing slowly, one after another, dehydrated and starving, minimal pain relief and wearing a nappy. I sat there, niight after night, wishing him dead, to end his suffering, my mums suffering, my suffering, my families suffering.

I still think the nurses 'helped' him, I hope they did, we couldn't go on sitting at his bedside. It's a little too cute he died the one time in a week we left him alone. He looked so peaceful when we saw him last, and kissed him goodbye.

If I had had the chance I wouldn't have thought twice. If I have to do that I will, and willingly for whomever in my family asks for it. I ask to be given that OPTION.

It's not right for everyone, and therefore not everyone would choose this end, but for those that would they should be able to make that choice without fear that loved ones will face a trial, criminal investiagtion or prison for that choice.

For me, this and the abortion debate are one and the same. I cannot envision ever making the choice to end my own life or abort a child, but if that is the choice that you want to make I will defend your right to make it.

I watched the Baroness of Surbiton discussing this last night and she said she was against this because it was not a choice she would make. I say so what? It's not right for you, but it is for others.

I have a friend younger than me with MS. We already know (despite having never explictly spoken of it) what will happen if things get 'that bad'. I will do and am willing to do the same for her as I did my cat. I stroked him till he had gone. It was the kindest thing I have ever done.

This debate is about CHOICE, not force. Doctors who oppose abortion are not forced to 'prescribe' it. Doctors who oppose assisted suicide should not be forced to condone it, or take any part in it. What Sir Terry and others like him are saying is that, like it or not, someone else is choosing the manner of their death. These people are asking for the right to choose for themselves how they spend their last days on earth. Knowing that you can put a stop to it must be a great relief.

This practice already goes on, at great risk to those left behind. Lets ease the suffering of the living too. I@m not saying it should be compusary, but give people the choice.

"What Sir Terry and others like him are saying is that, like it or not, someone else is choosing the manner of their death. These people are asking for the right to choose for themselves how they spend their last days on earth."

That really does sum it up.

So many sad stories. My father died exactly as you describe Anita. No helpful nurses though, so it went on longer. One of them cried though, when she saw the state he was in. It was utterly cruel. You would be rightly prosecuted for doing it to a dog.
It didn't happen in the past because other things intervened. Pneumonia for instance (which used to be called the old man's friend- and it was if it saved them my father's fate).

I really hope the euthanasia laws change in this country. I dont want anyone to have to endure watching me die like that.

I think it's tragic that people like Debbie Purdy should have to consider ending their lives while they still want to live because of the fear that when they want to die they will no longer have the capacity.

I read a debate that she took part in (Guardian I think), where she suggested that should people with degenerative illnesses, who fear incapacity and the future of their disease, (and not all people with degenerative diseases feel this way of course) be given the security of knowing that they could choose to die if it got too much, they may actually find that the day never came. They might choose to live. It's the fear of the unknown that send some people to Switzerland.

My grandfather suffered a severe stroke after having a mild heart attack and our family took the difficult descision to sign the DNR (do not rescuitate) form. Unfortunately after a catologue of mistakes he arrested whilst having a CT scan (whilst still unconscious)and the nurse accompanying him failed to tell the team that he was subject to a DNR and started CPR. My mother had also accompanied her father to the scan and had to tell the doctors whilst trying to stop them trying to restart his heart. She suffered terribly afterwards and had a nervous breakdown because of this - she never quite got over the guilt that despite it being a family descision she was ultimately the person who stopped him receiving medical attention and always felt that she had killed her dad. To put some perspective on this she was a staff nurse of 25 years and found it a difficult situation to be.

6 years on and i sat watching her die from ovarian cancer - she would often say that you wouldn't let an animal suffer the way she was. Towards the very end when we knew what was coming she was on a busy ward with a lady who was clearly confused, shouting, screaming, crying - not her fault - but not the circumstances you want your mother to die in. After kicking up a right stink (i turned into the relative from hell) we managed to get her into a side room where she could die comfortably, with dignity and with peace. I wish i could say that i would have helped her if she had asked me but i deep down i don't think i could have lived with myself afterwards. In the end i did my best to make sure she appeared painfree, clean, had her perfume on(she had an obession with thinking she smelt of cancer!) and had some level of dignity.

Hogshead

I think this is a REALLY difficult issue.

I work on an onc/haem ward and though obviously the aim is to provide those that are dying with a peaceful death I have seen some truly awful deaths,sadly (People exsanguinating,severe respiratory distress etc) which have been really harrowing.I have had patients ask me help them to dieWhich is just awful,and obviously something one cannot do

I do think that if I saw a loved one in severe distress and they begged me and euthanasia was legal I would feel a moral duty to help them.

To qualify this I would point out that most patients with end stage disease are very well managed with adequate sedation and analgesia.Another important factor is that there are DNR orders in situ and I think this is another important area that such notices are drawn up in a timely way with the multidisiplinary team and family.

MavisEnderby - I'm smiling because i used to visit Mavis regularly!

I always thought that i knew how i would react/act in this situation but when it actually came down to being faced with losing someone close i actually reacted totally differently and this really surprised me. I too work in health and i found the experience of being a relative quite overwhelming and totally seemed to lose all my rational professional reasoning. Hence being relative from hell!

We found the LCP (Liverpool Care pathway)quite reassuring too

Chegirl and Anita your posts are beautifully expressed and pretty much say it all to my mind. And the Baroness of Surbiton can go sit on a pin (my children's favourite line at the moment).

Nobody knows what death is like: some one may ask for it but them it is not what they thought it was. Family who help kill someone,do not know how they will feel afterwards. I know of someone who agreed that the Dad could be put out of his misery at his own request and the wife gave him an injection but afterwards thay felt so bad they burned the house down where it happened and the wife had lifelong depression and one of the children became a heavy drinker and unable to function properly. If I chose between Terry Patchet and the Bible, I would definitely go for the latter, it has been tried and tested, in other words "Thou shalt not kill'.

If my parents asked me to do so I would. I love them so I'd do anything to make their passing easier. I'd feel less guilty than if I'd watched them suffering at the end.

I think it's just too harrowing and tragic to think that the final end of a long life has to be agonsing, terrifying and undignified. What I feel is fucking irrelevant.

Even if I personally had doubts or felt it was wrong, surely I could take solace in the fact that I was following their wishes. Honestly, I couldn't even watch someone I hated suffering, I can't understand people who aren't for euthanasia.

I totally agree with you Ormirian. I would do this if asked, it's not about me if it comes down to it, it's about the person I love and their suffering.

My dad asked me to kill him if he was ever in that kind of situation. I agreed, and would have done it if it had come to that. In the end I did not have to as he died very quickly of a heart attack.

It's an interesting debate. I'm a nurse, and provide palliative care to people in their own homes (amongst other things). I have thought long and hard about what I think of euthanasia, partly because many patients state that they would like it to end, and because I have seen people with pain and anxiety that was not properly managed. With medication, while a doctor prescribes, it is often left to a nurse to administer, and if I'm totally honest, I couldn't administer a medication which I knew had the sole purpose of ending someone's life. And with chats I've had with colleagues (both doctors and nurses), while we all agree an animal would not be allowed to suffer the way some patients do, there are not many of them who would feel comfortable with helping someone end their life. While it's fine to have a theoretical debate, I'm not sure that anyone can absolutely say what they would do without having the possibility of helping someone end their life right there in front of them.

I think if this ever became legal in this country, they would have to have some sort of opt-out clause for hcp's, in the same way that they allow hcp's who have a moral stance against abortion to opt-out of carrying out that procedure.