The prospect of Mum and Dad dying is bad enough without being asked to finish them off?

[sweetnsour]

Terry Pratchett and co are calling for assisted suicide to be legalised. I entirely support his right to die in the face of an appalling illness (dementia). But I object to the apparently seamless assumpation the campaigners make that it's the sick person's relations/family who get to 'perform the act' - ie the killing itself, with/without the family GP.

Acquiring the right to die is one thing. But having the right to ask someone else to kill you?

Doing it would be ghastly for the people left behind and, on top of the burden of grief, could damage them very badly.

Do you think the real issue is that we don't have enough high quality palliative care for those who are suffering?

Just a thought?

Also, I definitely worry about people being coerced into it.

I started this thread because of a family I know who went 'Dignitas'. Oh, I hear you say, surely that's the best way in these circumstances, more structured, minimises pain for all concerned, etc, etc.

Well....as babybarrister says, 'only people who have been in the situation really know'.

The family, far from thinking they would be pleased/relieved after they helped their mother die, fell to bits.

The 2 brothers described the night of the death - which had been highly sanitised by Dignitas - as 'appalling'. They arrived in Switzerland, went to the flat provided, had supper and 'Mum went upstairs to drink the drink by the bed'. They sat downstairs in the rented sitting room. The next morning they had the body shipped back to the UK.

The sons' problem was that, no matter how cleanly they's done it or how tidy the corpse is (sorry to be gross - but the point is this is gross subject) - they'd still helped kill their mother. And that wasn't OK.

They subsequently became quite angry with her for pressuring them into the Swiss trip -0 they felt it was unfair.

GothAnneGeddes - there isn't enough high end palliative care. However, I don't think that changes whether assisted suicide should be legal or not and whether it should be up to a family member to actually do it or not. Apart from the control issue (how could you regulate it, if the family can do it unassisted?) no-one should have to do this for a family member, an educated, trained professional should be the one to actually administer the required drugs.

There was an amazing documentary on about this about 18 months ago - showing people going to Switzerland and everything it entails. Very enlightening.

I think that anyone who is of sound mind should be able to tell someone at what point they want to be assisted and you should be allowed to assist them. Dying slowly, painfully & with no dignity should not be the only option.

Goth - I think better palliative care is part of the answer. It's terrible that hospices have to exist in such a hand-to-mouth way (one of our local hospices was about to close recently, until it received a large private donation - but even this will only be enough to keep it going for another couple of months).

But palliative care doesn't really address concerns about dignity (some people just find the dependency induced by terminal illness to be unbearable), or do much to help people who are immobilised or terrified about mental degeneration.

Isn't the issue more about making sure that if a family member did help someone die they wouldn't be prosecuted for doing so? I think it's not as simple as assuming that family members would want to do this.

When my brother was dying from cancer he told all of us that if the pain got any more unbearable he would go to Switzerland. He and his wife were finding out how they could help him die (if necessary) without her ending up in court (like the poor woman who has just been cleared of killing her daughter with ME).

We were all appalled and horrified and distressed that he was contemplating such a thing, but we also greatly admired and respected his reasons for wanting to consider it. The point is that he could feel regain some kind of control of his destiny when the cancer had taken all control from him, and that his wife wouldn't suffer from the law as a result.

In the end he died naturally . But at least he knew what he could do if his life became more of a living hell.

I shouldn't have come on here, but I have, so here is my perspective. This time last year I was literally watching my Dad die a horrible death from lung cancer. He finally passed on 6th February and if I could have eased this for him, even by helping him go a couple of days earlier I would have.

Two weeks later I sat by my Mum's hospital bed and told the doctors to withdraw all treatment. She died less than two days later.

Please do not make these sweeping statements without having already walked that path.

Yes, it is a most horrific thing to lose your parents, but far more terrible to let them suffer unnecessarily.

LilRedWG - sorry that you had to lose both your parents so close to each other, I can't imagine how terrible that is for you x

I do think though, that if palliative care was of a sufficient standard to guarantee a peaceful death, assisted suicide would be much less of an issue.

I worry that the assisted suicide debate takes attention away from the issue of better palliative care being needed. There are lots of people with terminal conditions who could be enjoying a better quality of life, but aren't because the support & funding is not there.

I find a lot of the debate in the media makes me uneasy, because it just seems to mirror a common idea that any sort of illness or disability is unbearable, which leads to very negative perceptions of those living with such conditions. (I'm not sure I've worded that well btw, I hope my point is clear.)

I found this www.guardian.co.uk/society/2009/nov/18/assisted-suicide-dignitas-house interview with the Director of Dignitas, and article about the clinic enlightening.
It certainly wasn't what I thought, or what that (albeit exellently acted) Julie Walters drama portrayed.

But I don't think we need a law to be passed, as it would pressure terminally ill and their families, once assisted suicide became a formal 'treatment option'. I possibly think it may be better to continue with the current legal grey area and case-by-case examination by the courts?

Ultimately, is assisted suicide or killing of terminally ill loved ones a step forward in human civilisation?

Thanks Chippin.

I should leave this thread now as I'm a tad raw, but I just watned people to know that in my opinion it is sometimes the final thing you can do for someone, the greatest act of love. I adore my parents and miss them every day.

I do (and always will) feel a sense of guilt at being the one who withdrew threatment, but you know what, it was what my Mum wanted - she wanted to be with Dad and who the hell was I to continue her miserable existance for my selfish reasons; ie, not wanted to lost my Mum.

I try to think that it was the nicest thing I ever did for her. She was not selfish at all - she was in agony, couldn't breath and was wasting away.

Isn't the problem that doctors can't do it because the hypocratic oath requires them to preserve life? Changing this so that they "acted in the best interests of the patient" or "according to the wishes of the patient" would presumably raise a number of other ethical questions. Patients already have the right to refuse further treatment from doctors and I think that's as far as it should go. Apart from anything else, it might put a lot of people off becoming doctors!

I actually think I could do it if someone I loved was in a lot of pain and I knew that was what they wanted.

Lil - I'm very sorry for your loss.

IMO, I think there is a definite difference in withdrawal of treatment and actual assisted suicide.

GothAnneGeddes - I understand the point you are making, but I don't agree. No matter how good the care is, there are still situations where assisted death would be preferable. Some people can linger on, in a very bad way, being doped up to cope with the pain, with no quality of life for a very, very long time. Have you been in this situation? (Please don't answer if you don't want to...) I think that unless you have watched someone die, in a very drawn out way, knowing how much they would hate to be existing in this state, then it's very difficult to imagine how awful it is. If you have and you still feel palliative care would be enough, then fair enough... we can't all agree on everything (apart from anything else, MN would be boring )

LilRedWG - it was the kindest, nicest thing you could have possibly done for your Mum & I admire your courage. Try not to feel guilty, as you said, you allowed her to go to your Dad as she wanted to - there is nothing to feel guilty about x

I would like to think that, if it were necessary and it were their wish, I could step up and do that last thing for them. After all, they have done so much for me

I would rather that than watch them suffer because of squeamishness on my part.

Has anyone read Terry Pratchett's views on this

here

I'm very much on his side. Palliative care is all well and good, but I think that with some illnesses no amount of care will improve the quality of life enough.

I would do it for someone I loved and I hope they would do it for me. My nan died from altzheimers and spent her last two years terrified and in pain. People treat their pets better.

I am sure I could cope with a bit of trauma and guilt (and prison time if necessary) if it meant helping to save someone I loved from that horror.

ChippingIn - I can definitely understand why some people would want to die. Definitely.

For myself, assisted suicide is something I would disagree with on moral grounds. (key words: for myself).

As I've said, there is an aspect to this debate which makes me uneasy and to echo an earlier poster, I do think it will always have to be on a case by case basis.

I understand that this issue is very personal and painful to a lot of people here and I hope I have not offended anyone.

lilredwg - my um was in exactly that situation - my Grandfather passed from bowel cancer and a month later my gran had a heamorraghe and was admitted to hospital. They too decided to withdraw treatment and she passed very quickly and in no pain.

fwiw my grandads passing was very easy too - he had amazing palliative care - round the clock nursing at home and a gradual increase of his morphine dose. We were all aware that this would speed things up as it were, but that is what he had wanted. He went from sitting in his chair laughing and joking to getting into bed and passing in less than 48 hours - so much kinder for all involved.

I'm very sorry for your losses.

LilRedWG - I hugely admire you.

Don't feel guilty - there's no reason. You loved your parents and your final act was one of love and bravery and compassion.

Many sympathies for your loss.

No no and no. I have been there through the slow lingering death of a loved one. And I would still argue passionately against a change in the law. It leaves the elderly and the vulnerable WIDE open to even more abuse. Statistics clearly show that the financial, emotional and physical abuse of elderly people is rife amongst their own family members. We cannot allow a situation to arise when elderly people are murdered byt their own family memebrs and for those family memebers to use 'assisted suicide' as a get out clause. You only have to look at threads on forums like this to see the lack of care and compassion for elderly, ill people. We no longer live in caring society when a family unit looks after the old and vulnerable. Ill old people stop us from sleeping and going on holidays and doing what 'we' want. And some day that old and vulnerable person may be you or I. I don't want to be put down like a dog because I wet the bed. And the elderly people who are beaten and abused by their family memebers for doing just that are the ones at risk of a premature death.

Rather than wasting time and money on legislation like this (which I'm fairly confident will never reach statute) money and resources should be poured into improving end of life care. Palliative care is already extending it's expertise from mostly cancer patients into cardiac and neurological end of life care and hopefully will soon be available to anyone in the last stages of illness. NHS funds need to be diverted away from cosmetic surgery and managers salaries and repeated life saving procedures fior smokers etc into ensuring that ANYONE in the end stages of a life limiting illness is being cared for in specialist areas with speacialist staff who respond quickly and appropriately to pain, distress and any other symptoms. People need a choice of where they die -it should not be left to family members to decide WHEN they die.

"People need a choice of where they die"

Shouldn't they get more choice than that?

People should have the right to die, but family members should not be involved.

I'd be prepared to do it (if there were no other way and someone was suffering terribly) but it needs to be a neutral thing by someone who has no personal interest in it.

TheDevilWearsPrimark's story is how it should be. Doctors should have the ability to increase a patient's medication, reduce pain or induce a coma, up to and including the point where this brings death forward. A qualified doctor making a clinical judgement based on the patient's mental and physical state is a far better prospect than asking untrained relatives to adminster lethal doses or having to travel to special clinics .... and it's how it used to happen in the past before everyone got a lot more squeamish and a lot more litigious. Doctors never used to keep people alive 'at all costs'. They were a lot more pragmatic.

'repeated life saving procedures fior smokers etc' - eh? Are you saying that smokers deserve less end-of-life treatment than other folks? My mother died of lung cancer caused by smoking. Her life was as valuable as anyone else's (in fact a great deal more valuable, if it's possible to make such a judgement, because her entire adult life had been spent in working for the community in various forms).

I do hope you don't mean what you appear to be saying.