to think that schools admissions aren't fair

[picklepud]

This is different from saying that I wouldn't go through the system if my child's local school had religious criteria, but I am feeling a bit sad and up in arms for a friend today. Same old story, her local school (primary) is c of E VA. She's not, and chose not to get baptised or go to church twice monthly. So now she will have to drive to her allocated school. So incidentally will many of the people who got in on religious grounds from way away. I really really would go to church for my dd to get into my local school, so I'm not criticising those who do, but I just don't think it should be necessary. Or that religious commitment should give you priority in a state school. And particularly that the vicar should not pretend for a minute that he (as he said in a newspapaper article) say that this is a school in the heart of the community serving all the children of the community.
I know, I know, some people might genuinely change through exposure to the church but I don't think it's the way for a church to expand its membership. sorry. and sorry it's so long.

Oh and they all (well I only skimmed the document but it looked like all) have religious entry criteria - most have no community places.

"Star Trek fans" now that one dd would have a chance of getting into.

Two4One, I don't think anyone is suggesting that there is anything wrong with faith schools, it's the admissions policy we're talking about.

I'm sure a badly performing religious school would have no problems admitting non religious students, since they won't a whole load of hypocritical parents driving from outside of the catchment area driving there, just to make sure their child has a 'religious' education.

what I mean is that at our school we have a huge range of people attending which perhaps, dur to area, ethnic background, family income/education may not meet - my children have met people from all over the place and we really don't live ni an ethnically diverse place. Because these children have something in common, that they are being raised as catholics it sort of binds them together which i can only imagine to be a good thing

if you think religion is stupid, then this will not mean anything to you but really in practical terms it works this way in our school

So, tarty, do you think the school would become less diverse and inclusive if it opened its doors to children from outside the Catholic faith?

People send their children to faith schools to 'be with their own kind'.
Yes, Two4One, they do. What a depressing thing to aim for. What is it about mixing with children of other kinds do you find alarming, or second rate? And should that argument hold up next time white parents insist that their children cannot attend a school that is 90% Bangladeshi?

20% of the children at our place are not catholics - i don't think it would be less so I don;='t know to be honest what i mean is that this is a good result that comes from their particlaur policy

If 20% of the children at your school are non-Catholics then it is already a great deal more inclusive than the faith schools round here.

Is that because it is undersubscribed or because it holds a number of non-church places?

"It's called "society". Sometimes we pay for services we don't get to use ourselves. But it's good to know that everyone is catered for in their own way.

If you don't like faith schools, don't use them."

Yes - but the difference is that I wouldn't be turned down for IVF because my PARENTS don't go to church! Only because where there is limited funding there is an argument it should be used to try to achieve the largest numbers of conceptions (the rationale for not providing IVF for over 40's).

Anyway - those of us who live in areas where all the children from supportive, stable families are herded towards the same schools: schools that are selective on academic/religious/financial terms, know what the consequences are for the rest of the population: educational ghettoes, with disproportionate numbers of difficult to teach, socially disadvantaged children. You can pour money into these schools, but they are often very difficult places to teach and to learn. I want my daughter going to a school which reflects the social make-up of the country we live in - because I think it's better for her and for society as a whole.

YABU If its VA then the church are paying something towards it.If you are not prepared to get baptised or attend church then its only fair that those that do should get priority.

I think as ever people are arguing from the perspective of their own experience and situations.

People who live in an area which is not dominated by faith schools with 100% entry from that faith probably find it hard to understand or even believe this problem.

There are people who go for the faith option to get into a better school, even though the other choices are fine.
There are people who have to go to eg village faith school because it is the only one.
There are people who feel they have to engage with religion as otherwise their child will end up with a truly dreadful school/a really inconvenient school/no school at all.

In these conversations it is never defined exactly which group/s are being discussed and whether some groups have a point while others don't etc.

For eg tarty your school has 20% community places. That is great. The schools around here do not (in the main) have that - they are 100% on religious criteria. Our situations are different but you are arguing from the POV of your experience.

Maybe all faith schools should have to have 50% community places? That would help.

Yes, that would help.

I have no problem whatsoever with religion, but I fail to see why it is the state's job to ensure that parent's have a right to have their children taught in state funded establishments in accordance with the rules of their chosen religion. Taken to the nnnth degree we will soon have state funded Zoroastrian schools with 2.3 children in them, because it's important to be with 'their own kind'. Why is your religion more important than theirs? The only logical and fair way to go is that it should be totally secular, with religious philosophy taught as a subject in general terms, with all religions touched upon, and making no assumptions about any faith being 'right', or 'better' than another. If a specific religion is that important to you it can be adequately covered at home, and in the relevant place of worship. I also fail to see why a daily act of worship is necessary. It is irrelevant to so many of the children there. I wonder how parents at Catholic or C of E schools insist that their children worship daily at home?

Just wondering, what would Jesus say?

Suffer the little children to come unto me?

(But only if they've got a letter from the parish priest.)

Anybody can get out of bed on a sunday morning and take their kids to church , polish the brasses and bake cakes for the coffee morning.If you can't be arsed and would rather have a lie in then don't whine about the church school not admitting your DC.

Maybe so, princessparty, but not everyone can make the serious vows about their faith that are required for baptism, wouldn't you agree?

Anybody can get out of bed on a sunday morning and take their kids to church , polish the brasses and bake cakes for the coffee morning.If you can't be arsed and would rather have a lie in then don't whine about the church school not admitting your DC.

Do you not understand that the church is simply not an institution many of us wish to support in any way, shape or form? That some of us don't want our DCs first lesson from school to be that lying and hypocrisy are necessary?

That too, grimma.

That really was quite an unpleasant post, princessparty. You surely don't condone this kind of hypocrisy?

Taking the kids to church, polishing brasses etc and, in the process, teaching your children that it's ok to tell fairly massive porkies in order to get something you want (and that something being supposed to provide you later with an apparently good moral code) seems dodgy and weird to me, princess party.
Having your children learn that it may be necessary for their parents to lie in order to attain any education for them AT ALL, as some posters here are finding where they live, seems pretty awful too - though in a different way.

On your application form they don't ask you to swear the creed or anything.Only that you went to church and how you supported the church.No porkies there.Incidentally that ius why church schools tend to be better because the parent have to have some sort of discipline to get themselves to church on a sunday.

Astounding cynicism, princess.

And these institutions claim moral superiority? Maybe its because they've all been taught what to think rather than how to think.

Ah right PP, so parents who don't go to church on a Sunday have no discipline