to think that schools admissions aren't fair

[picklepud]

This is different from saying that I wouldn't go through the system if my child's local school had religious criteria, but I am feeling a bit sad and up in arms for a friend today. Same old story, her local school (primary) is c of E VA. She's not, and chose not to get baptised or go to church twice monthly. So now she will have to drive to her allocated school. So incidentally will many of the people who got in on religious grounds from way away. I really really would go to church for my dd to get into my local school, so I'm not criticising those who do, but I just don't think it should be necessary. Or that religious commitment should give you priority in a state school. And particularly that the vicar should not pretend for a minute that he (as he said in a newspapaper article) say that this is a school in the heart of the community serving all the children of the community.
I know, I know, some people might genuinely change through exposure to the church but I don't think it's the way for a church to expand its membership. sorry. and sorry it's so long.

Hello again. Another thought. The local primary that my friend didn't get into over subscribed - people go to church because they are so keen for a religious education. Local VA secondary school undersubscribed. Suddenly at eleven, these families lose faith or don't need their child to be receiving a religious education. What changes? But I maintain it's the system that's wrong not those who buy into it because they want the best (whatever they mean by that) for their children. Could the church maintain ownership of the buildings but rather generously (feed the poor, clothe the naked) give/loan them to the government. Or just open up their admissions policy.

I don't think faith and education should be linked but dont see how that can change if the church owns the schools. However,I do think that faith schools ahould have their non-relegious intake to reflect the % of their money they recive from tax payers. So, if they recieve 50% of their funding from the government then 50% of their intake should be taken based on the same criteria as other non denominational schools.

That would be a good start. Does anyone have the figures for percentage of funding that's from the state - I suspect its a lot more than 50%.

As to the churches 'owning' the schools and the land... lets just think a moment how they - the CofE at least - came to do so. Mainly by hundreds of years of tithing, which was pretty much mandatory taxation.

YANBU. One would have assumed that the church schools would be happy to accept all enthusiastic applicants regardless of faith as a means to a a captive audience?

There is precise racial segregation within our 2 extremely close primary schools. One Catholic, 95% white, one secular, 95% Asian. Absolutely intolerable in a very densely poplulated urban community. DD1 attends the Catholic school.

It's interesting you say that BHB as in Scotland is the opposite as catholic school more attractive to people with any faith. As result the faith school DS1 attends has a lot of racial mix. I think it's because they are taught about all religions and faiths.

All of the running costs of Voluntary Aided schools (VA schools are the ones that are allowed to set their own admissions) are met by the government as well as 90% of the capital costs.

Well discrimination occurs in many ways, not saying it is right btw!

I send my youngest dcs to a faith school, it is not the nearest but the second nearest.

It is oversubscribed but we got in.

Could I afford to move closer to the school? Absolutely not. The smallest house in the immediate catchment area is far more expensive than my house. We do not earn enough to afford to buy a house there. One of the reasons for this is that people from outside the area move from the south inorder to live in a quaint village with an outstanding school, therefore driving up house prices even further. I know there is nothing wrong in this although, morally it is depriving local children of a place in the local school.

This is the same argument as the ops I suppose.

As an aside my nearset Catholic church allocates places first to children who are baptised as babys in the adjoining church. With regular church attendance from then by the parents expected. The vicar keeps a registar of attendance, so a child who is only baptised at a later stage would take a back seat. Sounds like this is the exception to the rule though.

Difficult to sum up a long thread but here is my take.

Athiests with no local or even non local secular school from which to choose. They have a point - not fair.

'Shadow catholic' pew jumpers feigning faith for educational not spiritual reasons - corrosive of Chruch and school values and wholly dishonest

Lapsed Catholics genuinely returing to the practice of their faith for and with their children - a positive and genuine thing

Practising Catholics who want their DC educated in Catholic schools some of whom think the Catholic schools are only slightly better educationally that secular schools - reasonable analysis

What a mess!

Difficult to sum up a long thread but here is my take.

Athiests with no local or even non local secular school from which to choose. They have a point - not fair.

'Shadow catholic' pew jumpers feigning faith for educational not spiritual reasons - corrosive of Chruch and school values and wholly dishonest

Lapsed Catholics genuinely returing to the practice of their faith for and with their children - a positive and genuine thing

Practising Catholics who want their DC educated in Catholic schools some of whom think the Catholic schools are only slightly better educationally that secular schools - reasonable analysis

What a mess!

"Could the church maintain ownership of the buildings but rather generously (feed the poor, clothe the naked) give/loan them to the government. Or just open up their admissions policy."

Why would they want to do that though? They want to provide a faith based education. They have no interest in providing a secular education. In order to provide a faith based education they need parents who will support the values of the school. If parents didnt have to do that, then the ethos of the school would be threatened.

The choice is either

1. Current system

1. No faith schools. Government has to spend a lot of money building more schools, spreading the available money more thinly.

PS (I really should start finishing off my messages properly shouldn't I?)

I agree with trhe consensus on this thread that the current system of school place allocation (I believe it's known as "choice") is ridiculous. When I was at school, our town had 2 co-ed comprehensives, 2 single sex comprehensives and the catholic comprehensive. You could state a preference for the Catholic school or the single sex comps - otherwise you just got allocated one of the comps depending on where you lived. End of. Both had a mixed catchment so neither one was worse than the other. Now apparently one has become the "first choice" and that has become more and more pronounced as success breeds success.

It's not that I dont sympathise with parents on this thread. I'm just not sure that faith schools are the real problem.

Yes, Arctic Fox, very well put. Also it's been put in other ways: the chicken and egg analogy and the point that it's easier to maintain momentum than generate it (sorry posters I can't remember who said it but they were good points).

Selection and discrimination will definitely happen: parents will nowadays find a way to place their children in the best local school. Faith selection is the method at the moment: abolish faith schools and there will be another way. Possibly a way which many people don't have access to -- even steeper property prices, for example. I mean, at least at the moment, if they want to everyone can steam up on a Sunday and pretend.

I understand the issues posters have where there isn't a nearby non-faith school.

However for most people the problem is that the faith school is the best local school, as Lady Biscuit points out. Those driven parents will find a way to get their children into the best school, and once there will increase its success, come hell or high water. Often leaving atheist parents in the rubbish school with the parents who don't give a shit.

However the problem is not really the faith schools: it's the parents who don't give a shit who let the other schools slide. But we can't do anything about the parents who don't give a shit, because it looks unsympathetic, or discriminatory, or right wing, or moralistic, or judgemental. So we say faith schools are the problem instead.

Ok, so CofE schools are not funded by the government, but by the church? Do I have that right?

No, ten pc comes from the church. Is that right? I didn't know it was that much before this thread

we are reaping the benefits of not being prepared to lie....

ds got given a place at our 4th choiuce school, which is 2.8 miles away, he was the only child in the primary school going there and the only child who didnt get his chosen school. I cannot do organised religion but have happily turned up (as a community-minded soul) to every coffee morning, jumble sale, baked cakes, listened to children read, helped orgaise church fair, face-painted for church events etc etc since pre-school days.
his first 2 choices were the faith school. The shiny, over-subscribed school where they don't 'do' SEN and the catchment area is 0.25 km from the school gate and the houses average price is £350....

So, the church contributes 10% of costs (supplies, salaries...etc) to the school and gov't provides the rest?

If CofE schools are totally funded by the church, I could see how they would be only open to church-goers... even though that is a bit in present day...but anyway, if 90% is funded by the gov't... I just don't see how it's possible to not accept someone based on church attendance.... doesn't make sense.

Not quite, StarExpat:

'Faith schools receive their recurrent funding from their LA in the same way as other maintained schools. In many cases, the faith organisation will have provided the land for the school and, in the case of voluntary-aided (VA) faith schools, remain responsible for any capital work. However, in practice, VA faith schools tend to receive 90 per cent of funding for capital work from the DCSF or their LA. LAs are responsible for capital funding for voluntary-controlled (VC) and foundation (including trust) faith schools.'

As I understand it, supplies and staff are totally state funded. The vast majority of faith schools fall into the VC category so the state funds 100% of their capital costs. The VA schools receive ~90% funding of capital costs.

Blessed are the property owners.

Well, then it makes no sense that entry should be selective. But that's just me, coming from a place where there are laws about the separation of church and state. I understand that's not the case at all here in the UK, and, to each their own, so I will shut up

Bits and bobs.

Missionaries vary in their contribution; some go in and help out in Orphanages etc etc and are wonderful; they IMO are the ones who accept the indigenous faith and simply practice their faith by showing love. those who seel to coonvert in an evangelistic way are not as positive IO would say, I specifically aovid donating to charities such as SP and think the love of God is in the work you do,not the souls you claim. If it is true that God chooses who he saves into grace then that is perhaps a clear sign that we should accept the existing faiths of people. however I am a person of Universalist,many roads to God faith and I struggle with the one upmanship I sometimes see,my faith is better than yours? look,if it motivates you to good and you are happy I can't see the problem.

Slavery- yes faith was part of the solution to slavery but only a part- economics,changes in political
situation... I did my RE dissertation on exactly that so have Books on it (deliberate capitalisation ))

Our school is Endowed,it is totally satte funded but each year the kids (as young as reception fgs) take RE exams and theya re assessed as to whether they are religious enough as to receivemoney fromthe trust. This years report of assessment contained comments such as 'I was in the maths lesson 20 minutes without seeing a single reference to God' and 'perhaps some other solution to this report could be found,or alternatively the Head might administer me with hemylock'. Sane person then, just the sort you want in the school

Star - please continue to participate! An outsiders view is often clearer.

Can any of the Christians on this thread truly say that they feel that Christ would wish a school set up in his name to turn away the children not already attending his Church? Can you imagine the scene in the New Testament. "Suffer little children to come unto me providing they're from the right sort of background".

Where is the Church leadership on this? Can't they see that getting rid of this discrimination would be a great opportunity to increase their credibility and spread their faith?

This thread is helpful - it's the Church leaders who are failing here, not the parents who pretend to be Christian.

Of course youa re right,IMO anyway. Christians should be welcoming,sharing and that goes double WRT to children. Absolutely.

I had a thought last night. Here is the scenario.

I am a faithful cofe believer and have gone to church regularly all of my life. I am a part of teh church community and help out and donate and am generally very wonderful and lovely.

I have some children and look into primary schools. I realise that the preferred school (for whatever reason - only one/best one etc etc) is attached to a different cofe church.

I up sticks from my church that i have attended for years and start going to the one that counts for the school.

My analysis of that situation is that the person is behaving just as badly as someone who "rediscovers" their faith or indeed suddenly finds it. They are acting in the best interests of their child, by practicing their religion somewhere other than where they actually want to.

So in fact these rules don't just lead to athiest/agnostic/lapsed people behaving in an unethical manner, but devout religious people as well.

Any thoughts on that on people?

But it wouldn't even be the christians doing something nice if they were to "open their doors" to anyone... the school is mostly funded by public funds.
Are there CofE NHS clinics, too? Where you can't register there unless you are of a certain faith and the clinic is on church land?

but as well as providing 10% of teh capital costs , often the school building was originally supplied by tghe church and their will be legal strings attached to that.

backtolingle I agree totally excellent post.

I would imagine that really they should be selling off their land in "nice" areas in order to buy land in deprived areas and set schools up there.