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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

to be fuming that one of our local oversubscribed schools was half empty when I looked around it this morning?

135 replies

thedollyridesout · 13/01/2010 12:53

When I challenged the Head about the number of empty rooms vs pupil admission number he said that the school number was set at the maximum capacity of the school hall to enable the whole school to meet together.

AIBU in thinking that that is a rubbish reason?

This school has fantastic facilities and I am sure it could easily accommodate more pupils.

OP posts:
PixieOnaLeaf · 13/01/2010 16:24

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PixieOnaLeaf · 13/01/2010 16:26

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thedollyridesout · 13/01/2010 16:28

This school has 490 pupils. Another school that I visited 2 days ago has over 600. It is my impression that the first school is 'larger' than the second. Not a wind up.

I could be wrong in my estimations of course but by the Head's own admission they are operating at their legal minimum.

OP posts:
overmydeadbody · 13/01/2010 16:29

yes YABU

Bet you wouldn't be fuming if your DC got in.

thedollyridesout · 13/01/2010 16:31

Nearest one = regularly oversubscribed

Most pupils from her primary go here but live much closer than we do.

It is my preference that she goes to a school that is less than 10 miles away - by taxi .

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PixieOnaLeaf · 13/01/2010 16:32

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PixieOnaLeaf · 13/01/2010 16:34

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JustGettingByMum · 13/01/2010 16:36

The problem with just squeezing one more in is that everybody thinks that the one more should be their child. Probably part of the reason the school is so well regarded is because the teachers can teach well in classes of this size, and can still help those students needing extra help.

A bureaocratic cock up with DS2's year resulted in an additional 15 students being accepted on appeal, this has meant 5 extra students in each class and the year has suffered for it - he is now in Y10 and their year group have always been the most troublesome and difficult to manage. These additional students have overstrectched the teaching resources and spoilt it for everyone in their year - including themselves.
Sorry if that sounds harsh but he is having to put up with this all the time, DS1 at the same school never had anything like the discipline probs in his year group. Nothing else changed, only the extra students .

thedollyridesout · 13/01/2010 16:36

The classroom that were occupied looked full or thereabouts and those that were empty were definitely empty, many classrooms - enough to bear mentioning and cause mild embarrassment.

OP posts:
domesticextremist · 13/01/2010 16:38

Yes but where would she have gone had she stayed at her private school - did it go upto 18? Or would she have had to travel?

Is there not a bus anyway? And if not and you dont drive then why would live miles from anywhere when you dont drive? I dont drive and have to factor this in to all of my choices.

hocuspontas · 13/01/2010 16:39

Flibberty - if you have 35 reception children and only one qualified teacher I'm sure that is illegal. As soon as you go over 30, apart from special circs, you have to employ another teacher. A TA won't do.

thedollyridesout · 13/01/2010 16:42

I have to apply by Friday and I honestly don't think we have a chance of getting into any of the three I have mentioned.

OP posts:
DoNotGoGently · 13/01/2010 16:43

Schools are not expected to use all of the classrooms all of the time. The DCSF recommended class usage percentage in a secondary school is that classrooms should be used for no more than 71% of the time. I can't remember what the figure is for a middle school.

DoNotGoGently · 13/01/2010 16:46

Hocus - what you say is true. The law says that Reception, Year 1 and 2 classes must contain no more than 30 children with a qualified teacher. It would be breaking the law to have 35 with a qualified teacher and a TA.

thedollyridesout · 13/01/2010 16:46

The bus for our 'catchment' school stops across the road from our house.

Yes, private school up to 18 - bus from the bottom of the road.

Of course I drive but with 3 DC at different ages/stages it can be very difficult.

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thedollyridesout · 13/01/2010 16:51

DoNotGoGently - I'll have a look for that info, it may be useful for my appeal .

OP posts:
Awassailinglookingforanswers · 13/01/2010 16:53

not linked to the OP - but the last post about the law and class sizes.

In DS2's last term in reception he came home from school and told me he had 31 children in his class......only one teacher. I thought 'ey up" (not in a bad way - school is excellent and I'm not one to kick up a stink about an extra pupil when it's blatantly not having any impact on my child whatsoeveR)

I did mention it to his class teacher though - (I know most of the staff at the school very well as I do assembly once a month there) - she winked at me and said "shh" (so I did ).

As for the OP - well...........I'm not really sure what to say other than I also think this must be a wind up!

MillyR · 13/01/2010 16:54

If they can't find you a school within 5 miles, then the LEA have to provide you with transport to school and pay for it.

Nobody has to have a car to get their children to school. If there is no school within walking distance (3 miles primary, 5 miles secondary) on a safe route, then the LEA has to sort it out.

thedollyridesout · 13/01/2010 17:00

Why do people think this is a wind up?

I am sure that not many people will find themselves in the situation of having three oversubscribed schools as their 'choice' of schools. However it is very real for us and I am trying to find a solution.

I would welcome any useful ideas.

OP posts:
claw3 · 13/01/2010 17:02

Ok thedolly, it is long! obviously you will have to do your own research, but here is mine as an example.

Although the school is over subscribed i would like you consider my application for x to have place at ....................

I feel that the school could take an extra pupil because 3 appeals were sucessful in 2006 and 3 extra pupils were admitted on top of the set number, as stated on ........... Councils website, so the school can cope with more pupils.

Standard admission number is 390, but number of children on roll in years 7-11 as shown on ............councils website is 2077, which equates to an average of 415 per year group. In the previous year, the number on roll was 2075 (years 7-11), which is also an average of 415. This would indicate that the school regularly take more pupils than the stated number of 390.

Additionally on the DfES website, test results for 2006 showed the number of 13 year olds on roll was 382 and the number of 15 year olds on roll was 354. In 2005 13 years old on roll was 378 and 15 year olds on roll was 344. This is far lower than the set 390, which would indicate that pupils leave mid year and that both these year groups are regularly under subscribed. I believe allowing x to attend, woudl not prejudice the provision of efficient education at the school.

............ school have told me that each years intake of 390 is split into 14 forms = 28 pupils. In this context the addition of 1 more pupil would not impinge on attainment. On this basis allowing x to attend would not, i believe have any negative impact on the teaching or learning of any pupil.

I note from the last Ofsted report that accommodation for the main school was poor, but a major building programme was just about to start and was set to make a huge improvement. The 20 million project was finished in September 2005. The number of pupils on role before the improvements was 2157: the number now is 2077. This would indicate that teaching space has increased and the number of pupils has decreased. I believe therefore there would be a reasonable amount of speace to accommodate an extra pupil.

The Ofsted report stated that provision in science is satisfactory and the enrichment of science provisions is good. GSCE results were improving. There is no mention of overcrowding and it stated that teachers managed groups weel. Since the Ofsted report major building work have been completed and ...............school now have increased teaching space and 12 well equipped labs. this would indicate that Health and Safety requirements would not be breached or prejudice the learning of pupils.

...............school website states that all pupils within ICT lessons have access to their own computer or laptop. In addition most other curriculum areas have their own ICT suites. All rooms within school are equipped with interactive whiteboards. I believe the addition of 1 extra pupil would not infringe on the learning of other pupils.

The Ofted report prasied the school for successfully improving their performance. National tests and GCSE results are rising faster and are better than other schools and teaching is improving. This would indicate that despite having a larger number of pupils on roll and poorer accommodation than they have today, performance and results improved, they did not deteriorate. Additionally, SATS, GSCE and A level results in 2006 have improved dramatically as stated on ............. school website. I believe therefore admitting x would not have any negative affects on the school performance.

The Ofsted report also stated that financial management is efficient, the school lives within its means and consistently balances its budget and they offer good value for money. I feel the addition of 1 extra pupil would not impinge on the schools resoures.

I then go on to say if x is not allowed to go to ........... school i am very worried that.................

I feel ............ school would be good for x because.............................

I then had a list of awkward questions to ask the school representative at the hearing.

Excuse any typing mistakes in a rush, have to go shopping now, but if i can help im more than happy to. Everyone is entitled to appeal.

domesticextremist · 13/01/2010 17:06

Dolly - all of my local schools have more applications than places - its the norm isnt it - especially in London. Lots of people in Richmond werent even offered a school last year.

thedollyridesout · 13/01/2010 17:08

Thank you so much for that claw3. This is exactly the type of reasoning I'm proposing. Your case is obviously stronger than mine, 28 vs 31. Maybe I have no chance at all but surely it's worth thinking about/trying.

Well done you for getting your case together and winning .

OP posts:
thedollyridesout · 13/01/2010 17:10

I am a bit of a novice when it comes to the state system. I can't say that this is what I expected.

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MillyR · 13/01/2010 17:13

Dolly, if you go to the 11 plus website forum, they an appeals section. Most of it will not be useful for you, as it involves selection, but there is a sticky thread at the top that has lots of useful info, including links to the ombudsman cases.

clam · 13/01/2010 17:13

Perhaps you interpreted as embarrassment the fact that the Head was taken aback by what he perceived as an impertinent question.