to be shocked that 'normal' people can be racist?

[MitchyInge]

unreasonable or just spectacularly naive to have discovered that there are people working with (or for the interests of) asylum seekers who begrudge and resent the help they receive?

am not about to start reading the Guardian or anything but I feel a bit sick after being privy to a semi-private discussion which ran along the lines of - ugh, I can't repeat it

admittedly I don't live in the most multi-cultural place in the world so perhaps am just not aware of all the issues

malovitt,

I understand the problem but this is something where we need to be firmer to be fairer in the long-term. If people refuse work, then they are not upholding their part of the social contract.

Unemployment benefit is meant to be a safety net, not a lifestyle choice.

I have a good friend from Armenia (Eastern Europe) where my family originates from too. They came to the UK in a lorry as Armenia is a poor country so they came here for a better life. At first the family were on benefits and had a council house and benefits, now the husband is working as a labourer and my friend is also working they own their own house and car and are off benefits.

That is fine and hats off to them, i have no porblems with immigration and using benefits as a short term solution. I think that also we should limit immigration as we are a small country and cannot have loads of people in, we might be in danger of becoming over populated.

I totally disagree with British people who are on long term benefits especially 'the sick' when they can work but just do a different job. I was reading something about a family with 16 children who earn £37000 in benefits, but they do not want to work unless they earn the same or comparible, they lady is pg with dc number 17. That makes me so , the government make it too easy for people to do this, they should stop their benefits and make them work than see how many children they will have if they have to support them themselves.

lucyellensmumagain, I am still really angry about being called a racist. I find it absolutely appalling that you just go round labelling people as racist for no reason whatsoever.

My dad was an immigrant (a genuine economic migrant who waited for months to jump through the hoops, legally). I have experienced plenty of genuine racial abuse in my time.
For what it's worth, I'm not white (not that in itself, that means I can't be racist).

Your comments are completely out of order.

Its really the governments fault to allow this to happen, they really cut their benefits and slowly decrease them until they stop they would have to find a job then! Yes of course there are people that are genuinly sick and disabled who really cant work, i used to work with a client group who for most would not be able to hold down a job, but some people really take the piddle they really do.

I am talking about the British citizens above by the way not immigrants

My friend opposite has an Autistic daughter and she does not work obvioulsy to look after her and gets benefits, her dh works and they are a hard working family, thats fair enough fine but for those who have a cycle of dependency and little or no work ethic and expect taxpayers to pay for them, gosh if we all did that and had that mentality we would be up S$%^&* creak without a paddle.

sorry for my rant just had to get it off my chesP

I do actually agree with some of the points you have raised matey totally, my mums friend from Iran has been on benefits and housing for years and does not work even though she is quite capable of doing a job, not sick or disabiled, and yes it is immigrants that do some of the jobs that British citizens do not want to do, i used to work in care and a lot of them were from African countries as it is deemed undesirable to do personal care by a lot of people.

I am sorry that you found my comments offensive - but i found yours equally so - so that makes us quits.

I agree with alot of what you say, especially benefits as a lifestyle choice - but everything else, to me, was veiled racism, im sorry if i misunderstood.

I had a very hard time at school because my mother had a medical condition that made her appear black - she has constant shouts to "go back where she came from", "nigger" and has been threatened on more than one occasion - has been threatened with a knife - its not a nice reality but there is it. Now your comments were not racist in as much as you were picking on someone's colour

But things like "uneducated" "godforsaken country" are not far from it in my eyes.

Anyway, this is not a personal argument and im sorry if i made it appear so - will step out of the thread now as it is something i am overly sensitive about.

Thats totally unacceptable lucyell thats dreadful that your mum had these nasty things said to her that i certainly do not agree with.

I do kind of see the point of the view that says everyone is racist - in that all humans instinctively notice racial/cultural differences and identify more with those most like them. Modern, western white people and especially liberal lefties I think often get in a panic because they are desperate not to appear racist and yet can't help noticing and being hyper-aware of the fact that someone is not white.

I know a lot of older people like this including my mum - they know non-white people and would never say something like "go back to your own country" but actually they are very patronising and their underlying basically racist views do leak out - eg my mum will say things like "Well I'm surprised the could afford to buy that house" and "they all live together 15 to a room don't they, you'd think they could manage with a smaller place" - while she rattles around in a massive house far too big for her needs, but doesn't see that as worthy of comment.

The same people will be desperate to mention that they are friendly with some black or Asian neighbour etc. as if it they deserve some kind of special tolerance medal.

If I talk to my mum about this she absolutely denies she is racist in the slightest.

I also agree with the OP though, sometimes I'm also shocked by people's really overt racism when I wasn't expecting it.

mateykatie i am actually genuinely sorry, please accept my apologies - my comments were OTT. I have just read back on my posts abecause i got cross that you said i called you a racist and i didn't but my comments about the BNP were wrong - i was just angry

I don't share your point of view but you are entitled to it.

malovit, i used to be a seasonal fruit picker, as did alot of my family - (in kent actually, maybe i know your cousin! lol). It was something i really enjoyed - the farm where i worked employed mainy students from Wye. That and gypsies (have you ever seen a gypsy woman pick strawberries - its impressive!!) We were picked up at the end of our road and brought back in the evenings and i loved it. Couldn't afford to do it now though - pay not enough, hours too long. Its a studenty job. I don't have a problem with "foreigners" doing it though - isn't that what loads of young people do - pick their way around europe? there is often a bus load of eastern europeans dropped off at our local tesco - they are all young (18 or so) and to me, look like they are on a working holiday.

lucyellensmumagain,

Thanks for the apology. Let's just agree to disagree.

thesecondcoming

I have massive respect for people who want to come over here to improve their life - particularly if they have no skills, and want to do it through sheer hard work. That doesn't mean that their coming here is good for the country more generally though. It puts great strain on schools and other public services.

I agree completely that the problem is with the massive number of people on unemployment benefit. At some point, we are going to realise that we can't keep spending billions and billions on the dole, whilst just importing more and more unskilled migrants to do unpleasant jobs. For the good of society, we HAVE to get people who are long-term unemployed back to work.

Immigration only works if both the immigrant and country to which they are migrating benefit. I am not convinced that the second point holds, long-term, in the case of unskilled migrants. Of course, short-term, it is essential, otherwise the fruit won't get picked... but I see that in itself as a failing of society.

I did not think that mateykaties posts warranted the BNP, racist or dailymail accusations.

I think the gov makes it too easy for people to stay on benefits long term. It pains me to read that families on benefits have more disposable income than me ans dh, who work.
I know that obviously most people on benefits , need it, and have very little spare money. But some appear to be living the life of riley.

my dp would love any kind of permanent low paid job at the moment. He is sick of being on the 'dole'

luckily I have my p/t job

YANBU but just because you hold particular views doesn't mean you can't do your job.
I also don't think it's easy to stay on benefits long term for everyone. It wasn't for me.

No one on long term benefits is living the 'life of riley' because although their day-to-day needs will be met there will be nothing left for saving and actually getting out of the situation and, in the longer term escaping the social exclusion and lack of educational aspiration is passed down through the family thus blighting another generation.

It is very hard to suddenly gain aspiration if you havent been modelled with it from a young age iyswim.

Tbh I dont think I would work if I was going to take home 10-20 more a week and not see my children - who would? - especially if that job was a difficult caring role or a back breaking fruit picking one. The tax thresholds need to be changed to make it a viable choice.

And other benefits need deshackling from housing benefit so that you dont get caught in the trap of every pound you earn being taken away from your housing benefit.

Its actually very complicated.

Good post, Domesticextremist

But, that's where Domesticextremist's post is so valid:

If you are brought up like that... if your parents lived like that.. it's normal... by the time you've realised that there might be some alteratively, it's too late..

Obviously, there are exceptions, but the benefits system as is stands is a bit of a trap.

Take a young girl, difficult home life, falls pregnant, has baby, gets benefits to 'live' (and no, I'm NOT saying it's a good life) but if she tries to work, her benefits are cut, so she's essentially working damn hard and achieving (in real terms) absolutely nothing.

I agree - in those circs, I'd stay with my kids too.

But, thesecondcoming - Perhaps it's different if you have a house / something to lose. I think they people I'm thinking of (I grew up in perhaps not the nicest part of NE England) have NOTHING to lose. No house, no car, no job.. How can you hassle that person? They just get moved from one benefit to another, I guess.

I think disability is the big 'long term' one. I know quite a few people on that one!

I totally agree TSC its not fair, those who work hard seem to get nothing off ther government. Yes like Domesticext said its a underclass of people being created by the generous benefits given by the government, benefits work out more than someone earning so of course the person will sit on their arse with their hands out, this needs to be stopped. The less you save the mnore handouts you get where is the incentive to work.