to think that the word 'vermin' is amongst the most mean-spirited self-serving words in the English language.

[OrmIrian]

Tis a thread about a thread - sort of - well a spin-off from the fox-poisoner thread. Sorry.

Human animals dominate the planet. I think that is a given. Other animals have to squeeze into the spaces that we leave. The truly 'wild' bits of the world are getting smaller and smaller. Tigers for example are getting increasingly rare as they have the temerity to attempt to carry on living in their natural habitat where humans are encroaching. I don't need to tell you what is happening to polar bears. Most of the land in the UK is built-up or farmed. What is left is seen as a playground for humans - mountain bikes, motocross, walkers, climbers etc. Not much space left for other species to thrive. And we pollute the water and the air - a problem for other species even more than for our own.

There isn't a single species that hasn't been affected, usually for the worse, by human activities. Apart from those opportunistic enough and 'clever' enough to benefit from us. To fit into the cracks we leave - pigeons, rats, foxes, squirrels for example. They live alongside us, eating our rubbish, finding homes in the little bits of waste ground that we don't want. But as punishment for that adaptability we give them a name, we call them vermin, and declare them fair game - find them disgusting and try to poison them, hunt them or shoot them. Is it really acceptable to only permit the survival of those creatures that we find appealing and that don't impinge on us.

I am not a beleiver in animal rights. I think that is errant nonsense. But a bit of self-knowledge and compassion when dealing with the creatures we share our space with is needed.

I agree with you, its not a nice word
for a beautiful animal

Re Polar bears. Interestingly, their numbers are actually rising.

Animals frequently become more fertile in response to threat. But long term there can only be decline.

I agree. I am of the opinion that all animals, as individuals, can feel pain and suffering as much as each other. Why it is more acceptable for a fox/squirrel/rat/etc to be subjected to agony and/or death than a sparrow/badger/swan I don't know.

I HATE the word 'vermin' and whenever it is used I imagine the person using it to be ignorant, unthinking and lacking in compassion.

These animals didn't choose to be the species they are, and are just doing what comes naturally, but it doesn't matter how they are treated because they are vermin

Sorry don't know what happened to that link
here

I agree animals are part of life & as such an amazing miracle. We are not so very far from them, & they didn't chose to be born.

In a way, how we treat animals is a sign of our heart, how compassionate we are as people.

(long standing vegan)

I agree OP, and it's a shame that 'vermin' is used to describe clever industrious creatures that find a niche living amongst us. Rats, gulls, rabbits, foxes, pigeons and squirrels are so beautiful. I read your other thread and thought it was lovely how you said your DP was made happy by watching a fox, and then I felt sick at the responses mocking his enjoyment at watching wildlife.

You been watching Waterloo Road?

The way I see it OrmIrian, we humans are bringing ourselves down with our own success. The worst part of that is that we will take many many other species with us. The vermin and other lucky few will remain to repopulate the planet and even evolve to fill ecological niches which will be created by our demise and the demise of other species.

We talk very self-servingly of destrying the planet. Erm, no we are destroying an ecosystem which is fit for our survival. This planet has survived much worse destruction of its habitats and repaired itself and flourished. It will do that again. Without us.

Not very optimistic in the season of good will but that is the road down which we go.

Get a grip.

'Vermin' like 'weed' is a word that defines a plant or animal in relation to what humans plan and desire. They are useful words.

Well I think that the name might just as well have applied to the humans in that situation rasputin! After all we would have been the creators of the sewers and the filth in them.

But I take your point. Thankfully most of us no longer live like that and the sorts of risks that opportunistic species pose to us is miniscule in comparison with any 14th c city.

Yes, tinsel. Som epeople call other people vermin. And that is the issue - strongly differing opinions about what constitutes vermin.

Orm has a valid point of view that doesn't require getting a grip. Imo.

Agree agree agree. Totally.

Human beings are a total disaster. You only need to look at what we do to each other to see that, let alone the natural world. Don't get me started on fishing.

Fortunately i thnk we have come to a tipping point, where we will either sort ourselves out, or have our numbers drastically reduced, and that will be that.

The planet will carry on turning whatever we do

Calling it mean-spirited and self-serving does require calming down, that's what it's for. It's a subjective word.

Ah I didn't notice that I'd been told to get a grip I have a grip. Quite a good one as it happens.

I think the problem with the word tinsel is that it allows us to treat creatures (or people as pointy states) with convenient disdain. To sweep them away with no regard for them at all. And we might do better to look at the reasons for their existence instead.

So what are people in developing countries to call the rats which infest their shanty towns and spread disease to their children? Friends? Pets?

I don't think it's the word itself you are really angry about...

Agree with OP that is, rather than title. I am not keen on getting rid of words. They are all useful sometimes.

But it is mean-spirited and self-serving. As I just pointed out.

Wildlife = those animals that are threatened by us to a greater or lesser extent and therefor we can afford to tolerate or even wring our hands over.

vermin = are those animals that thrive under the conditions that we have inadvertently created for them, therefore we dislike them.

tether - they can call them animals as that is what they are.

I don't want to get rid of the word. I think it's interesting.

All subjective words can be used in self-serving ways. They are still very useful words.

OrmIrian, you make a good point. Shame about your last sentence though.

Unfortunately, there are many people that do not have the same self knowledge or compassion for animals, which is why the right of the animal to be afforded basic consideration is being constantly fought for. I don't believe this to be errant nonsense.

Calling them vermin conveys far far more information than just calling them animals. A mouse in a cage is not vermin. A mouse in a field is probably not vermin. A mouse in your ceiling chewing on your plastic piping (for no good reason) is vermin.

My point is, Orm, that I don't think someone living in a shanty town describing the rats that they are overrun by as 'vermin' is mean-spirited or self serving. At all.

You cannot pigeonhole people who use this word as a certain sort of person- even if a lot of the people you have a problem with use the word.

But we can't give rights to animals portia, because they cannot take on the related responsibilities. We have a massive responsibility to take care of them but they don't have a right to that.