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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Original poster

to think that the word 'vermin' is amongst the most mean-spirited self-serving words in the English language.

244 replies

OrmIrian · 29/12/2009 10:52

Tis a thread about a thread - sort of - well a spin-off from the fox-poisoner thread. Sorry.

Human animals dominate the planet. I think that is a given. Other animals have to squeeze into the spaces that we leave. The truly 'wild' bits of the world are getting smaller and smaller. Tigers for example are getting increasingly rare as they have the temerity to attempt to carry on living in their natural habitat where humans are encroaching. I don't need to tell you what is happening to polar bears. Most of the land in the UK is built-up or farmed. What is left is seen as a playground for humans - mountain bikes, motocross, walkers, climbers etc. Not much space left for other species to thrive. And we pollute the water and the air - a problem for other species even more than for our own.

There isn't a single species that hasn't been affected, usually for the worse, by human activities. Apart from those opportunistic enough and 'clever' enough to benefit from us. To fit into the cracks we leave - pigeons, rats, foxes, squirrels for example. They live alongside us, eating our rubbish, finding homes in the little bits of waste ground that we don't want. But as punishment for that adaptability we give them a name, we call them vermin, and declare them fair game - find them disgusting and try to poison them, hunt them or shoot them. Is it really acceptable to only permit the survival of those creatures that we find appealing and that don't impinge on us.

I am not a beleiver in animal rights. I think that is errant nonsense. But a bit of self-knowledge and compassion when dealing with the creatures we share our space with is needed.

OP posts:
tethersjinglebellend · 29/12/2009 21:14

Hang on, Orm- I am not taking the piss. I am having a debate. Of course I will try to belittle your points; that is what a debate is, no?

If you would like me to leave the thread, I will do so- but not happily, I have-and still am- enjoyed discussing this with you, and I stand by the fact that I find it interesting. This does not mean we have to agree. It's in AIBU.

I have told you how I see it and you have got angry. This was not my intention- I am a little taken aback by your last post to be honest. I am sorry if I have upset you.

To answer your questions:

"Do you think that you can only care about animals by being a vegetarian or a vegan?"

To a point, yes I do.

"Do you really think that killing with enjoyment isn't worse than killing with sorrow or at least neutrality?"

It may cast aspersions on the person doing the killing if they laugh as they do it, but the act of killing itself is no worse. Changing the terminology does not change the act.

"Do you really need to be a Jain to care about
non-human animals?"

Well, yes. If you are going to judge others for their perceived cruelty to animals, you must lead an almost blameless life in that respect. This is my own personal belief, and nobody will agree with me on it.

tethersjinglebellend · 29/12/2009 21:35

Thanks Imso... you read me right. I wasn't trying to upset anyone.

poshsinglemum · 29/12/2009 21:42

Someone said something to me once that has stuck with me;

The only animal on this planet that have no respect are humans.

I quite agree and we should be careful what we call vermin. Most animals don't destroy the environment like we do.

poshsinglemum · 29/12/2009 21:43

i am an ex vegan and now a total carnivore!

ImSoNotTelling · 29/12/2009 21:55

Wise words poshsinglemum. I agree.

poinsettydawg · 29/12/2009 22:03

what rot that carnivores should have no say in matters of animla cruelty.

ImSoNotTelling · 29/12/2009 22:07

I hope orm comes back.

Tethersend loved your last line "This is my own personal belief, and nobody will agree with me on it." Is that a tacit admission that your POV is not entirely logical - if you can see that no-one would agree with it?

Or is everyone else in the whole world wrong?

tethersjinglebellend · 29/12/2009 22:12

It's the latter, ImSo.

I hope she comes back too.

And I haven't heard the word 'rot' in quite a while, poinsettydawg, well done.

I just feel that it's hypocritical. If I was campaigning for insect welfare whilst munching on a grasshopper, surely you'd take me to task?

poinsettydawg · 29/12/2009 22:24

N o one campaigns for insect welfare. We all know they will rule supreme after armageddon.

VicarInaTinselTuTu · 29/12/2009 22:29

tinalane that link was just gorgeous. i think foxes are just beautiful and i get so upset that people kill them.

to the OP, i couldnt agree with you more. why do people have to be such....

arses. most of the time.

InMyLittleHead · 29/12/2009 22:35

Has anyone seen the episode of Black Books where Bernard finds out that his landlady has died and left his flat to a cat (called Mr Benson) so he hires a pest control guy to assassinate the cat. But then the pest control guy feels too guilty, and says 'In my dreams, mice parade before my eyes in wedding dresses. Families of roaches stand there in silent accusation.'

This reminds me of that.

But yes, in general, people think 'I want to kill a thing, so I will give it this name to make it seem alright.' They do it with other people too sometimes.

VicarInaTinselTuTu · 29/12/2009 22:36

....the killing for fun argument falls flat on its arse when you own cats...

my cats kill things. for fun. they are not vermin.

sorry ive only got to page 2 and this thread is rattling my cage....

people kill things for fun,

if i could randomly poison other people with impunity i think the planet would be a whole lot less overpopulated! id start with people who kill foxes....

tethersjinglebellend · 29/12/2009 22:40

Oh yes they do, poinsettydawg... oh yes they do.

poinsettydawg · 29/12/2009 22:41

I'll fight em till the death

tethersjinglebellend · 29/12/2009 22:42

Shit, are we on page 5 already?

Blimey.

Original poster
OrmIrian · 29/12/2009 22:50

I don't see that it is at all reasonable to say that only extremes count. I am a vegan therefore I care about animals. I am a meat-eater therefore I am a vicious bastard. No. We have a responsibility to live mindfully. Foxes kill because it's their nature and they have no choice. We kill because we can. We shouldn't revel in it. Or try to disguise the nature of the killing with words.

OP posts:
Original poster
OrmIrian · 29/12/2009 22:55

I don't want you to leave tether. I probably should though.

I found your post unkind and simplistic. Maybe it wasn't meant to be. I was trying to navigate what I see as complex waters. You appeared to think driving a speed boat through the middle was more appropriate. Maybe it is. I'm too much of an old fart for that.

OP posts:
jemart · 29/12/2009 22:59

vermin is a brilliant word - can be levelled with much venom at things like seagulls and pidgeons.

tethersjinglebellend · 29/12/2009 23:04

"I am a vegan therefore I care about animals. I am a meat-eater therefore I am a vicious bastard"

Not a vicious bastard, Orm, a hypocrite. A vegetarian or a vegan can be a vicious bastard. This is the point I am making- using the word 'vermin' does not denote a mean spirit or self-serving personality.

A vegan can be a paedophile, a cheerful slaughterhouse worker can volunteer in the soup kitchen. By your logic, their personalities are defined by their reactions as they kill an animal; I am merely pointing out how blinkered that is.

"We kill because we can. We shouldn't revel in it. Or try to disguise the nature of the killing with words."

Yet you stop short of saying "we shouldn't kill at all". I don't understand why.

poinsettydawg · 29/12/2009 23:14

ANyone who would happily set out to poison foxes would just not be a person I would think highly of. Yes, I would judge a person on that action alone.

A colleague told me once about her husband catching squirrels in their garden ("they are vermin") and then taking them to the river to drown them before flinging them into the woods. I don't think much of him at all.

mayorquimby · 29/12/2009 23:20

" Foxes kill because it's their nature and they have no choice. We kill because we can."

surely it's in our nature as well other wise we wouldn't do it.

poinsettydawg · 29/12/2009 23:24

Do you kill, mayor? Is it really in our nature? Everyone's?

VicarInaTinselTuTu · 29/12/2009 23:37

shite argument there im afraid from mayor. its not in my nature. that sort of chills me to the bone as arguments go.

do people really just not have consciences? i thought that was what made us human?

tethersjinglebellend · 29/12/2009 23:45

But vicar, isn't killing an animal killing an animal, regardless of whether it is for sport, food or because they are deemed 'vermin'?

Or is it ok to kill a animal just as long as you don't enjoy it?

VicarInaTinselTuTu · 30/12/2009 00:01

actually i dont think you can reasonably say that.

so if i just decide i want to go on a killing spree and take a semi automatic to a school and let rip, is that ok then? i might enjoy it. i might not. but its still wrong isnt it? would it be ok if i said i didnt enjoy it? would it be any less wrong?

or is it only non human things i can kill and it be ok?

as a police officer what if i think that 95% of what i deal with are vermin? can i reasonably exterminate them? my sense of whats right and wrong is just within me, i could no more kill a cat or a fox than a person. it would feel wrong to me. i would feel wrong doing it. and killing for pleasure cant ever be right. killing for the sake of being able to kill something is wrong.

i think its a dangerous path to go down, to ask what is vermin. what is vermin to you isnt to me. Hitler saw jews were vermin. did that make it ok? where do you say draw the line and say that one thing is ok to kill and another isnt?