to think that the word 'vermin' is amongst the most mean-spirited self-serving words in the English language.

[OrmIrian]

Tis a thread about a thread - sort of - well a spin-off from the fox-poisoner thread. Sorry.

Human animals dominate the planet. I think that is a given. Other animals have to squeeze into the spaces that we leave. The truly 'wild' bits of the world are getting smaller and smaller. Tigers for example are getting increasingly rare as they have the temerity to attempt to carry on living in their natural habitat where humans are encroaching. I don't need to tell you what is happening to polar bears. Most of the land in the UK is built-up or farmed. What is left is seen as a playground for humans - mountain bikes, motocross, walkers, climbers etc. Not much space left for other species to thrive. And we pollute the water and the air - a problem for other species even more than for our own.

There isn't a single species that hasn't been affected, usually for the worse, by human activities. Apart from those opportunistic enough and 'clever' enough to benefit from us. To fit into the cracks we leave - pigeons, rats, foxes, squirrels for example. They live alongside us, eating our rubbish, finding homes in the little bits of waste ground that we don't want. But as punishment for that adaptability we give them a name, we call them vermin, and declare them fair game - find them disgusting and try to poison them, hunt them or shoot them. Is it really acceptable to only permit the survival of those creatures that we find appealing and that don't impinge on us.

I am not a beleiver in animal rights. I think that is errant nonsense. But a bit of self-knowledge and compassion when dealing with the creatures we share our space with is needed.

Does anyone know the derivation of vermine? I'd love to know. Am going to have a look now.

How do you feel about the word parasite?

I'm not judging lice for filling the cracks that humankind has created. I just don't want them in mine.

The only reason there are hundreds of animals that would need to be locked up is because they are there to service our needs in the first place.

We are a total aberration in the natural order of things and we are fucking it up enormously.

I honestly would have thought you'd find the word 'game' much more loaded than vermin, since it is more for fun than anything else

What do you call them though? Just because you can trace the etymology back to the original French, does not mean that the words serve no purpose.

The French call a cow 'une Vache', and the meat 'boeuf'. Humans in whatever language have felt the need for separate words in order to make the distinction- is that also dishonest? Or just language?

We eat 'game'. We just kill vermin.

"Livestock again isn't loaded or denigratory. It's just a description."

Live stock; quite literally, property which is alive. But no, not loaded in any way

vermin has negative connotations, beef does not. Not sure what you are trying to get at, tether

game rarely ends up on a table actually

esp. big game, trophy stuff

even I think that is a bit pointless, thousands of £££ spent by syndicates incubating things to shoot for fun when they could just shoot pigeons or crows - even a v small shoot near here spent over £2k raising pheasants and very very few of them will be eaten

Vermin conjures up a "them or us" feeling as well. Lots of animals are killed due to their label as "vermin" even if they are not actually causing any trouble IYSWIM.

I dunno. We play most of our games on the table.

What do they do with them then mitchy? Seems crazy.

If this is about the word itself rather than about the treatment of urban foxes, then I think you are looking at this from the wrong direction. The word 'vermin' is of course now loaded, but it is loaded because it has been used out of its original context. We have always controlled animal that 'impinge on us' - or at least affect us in a negative way. I don't welcome mice into my kitchen, and while I am acutely aware of the irony of having pampered rodents in their palatial cage in one room and traps for rodents in another, I understand that it is down to this distinction: one is vermin, and one is not. It has nothing to do with how appealing they are at all, and it isn't a matter of "finding them disgusting" in some vague squeamish fashion. Vermin are anmimals which are either harmful and difficult to control, or who compete with humans or domestic animals, or who prey on domestic or game animals. So for you, a fox would noy be vermin, but for a chicken keeper they would be. By definition really.

yes, you see that a lot on MN - people putting down poison because they saw a rat in the garden even when it is not hurting them at all

I don't really agree with that, poor old Samuel Whiskers

All that demonstrates mitchy is that we are in fact worse than foxes. Someone earlier said that they get in the coop, kill all the chickens, and take one. How terrible. At least the foxes haven't bred and grown the chickens specifically for the purpose of dying a pointless death.

Why don't they eat them? Pheasant is delicious. it's bloody ridiculous. People say "oh well you don't understand the countryside" well if that;s the sort of thing that's going on no I bloody don't.

Orm has said the point of the word 'vermin' is to de-personalise (for want of a better word) the act of slaughtering animals.

I am asserting that the word 'beef' serves the same purpose. Otherwise we would be cooking roast cow for dinner.

'Beef' has negative connotations if you are a cow (That's a joke BTW. Please don't pull me up on it!)

Vermin comes from worm I think. Like vermicelli...

Vermin comes from Latin via French apparently - from vermis for worm. Now I guess a tapeworm could be considered a most troublesome beastie

x-post madonna.

ImSoNot... how is it terrible for someone to kill all the chickens in a coop, but yet you advocate eating pheasant?

I'm, once again, confused!

I don't know why they waste so much of it, they make a terrible mess as well. It's for people who play at being countrymen I think.

I also wonder why the lads who go lamping rabbits don't use the fur to make gloves.

Vermin is 'just a description' too, Orm.

But it is freighted with meaning now. Beyond it's mere descriptive qualities. You don't hear people being called 'game' or 'livestock' in normal parlance.

Foxes kill all the chickens in a coop because they have to make the most of it when they can. But they can't carry them all away at once. I don't think foxes are blessed with hindsight.

You do. When negatively describing the conditions of trains, passengers are sometimes (jokingly) referred to as 'livestock'.

Women are often described as 'fair game'.