to think that Art Club 'by invitation only' is a bit wrong?

[MarkStretch]

Every term my DD's junior school send out a list of clubs which the children can take part in either at lunchtimes or after school. The list is varied and includes sailing club, engineering club, wildlife club etc and the teachers give up their spare time to lead these clubs. I think this is fantastic and my DD has loved taking part in some of them.

However, Art Club was included in the list. It stated afterwards (by invitation only).

DD came home yesterday in tears because 2 children in her class had been chosen to attend art club and she wasn't. I told her to speak to the art teacher and let her know that the next time some spaces came up could she please be considered as this is something she would really like to do. She said it doesn't work like that.

So I rang the school secretary to find out why it was by invitation only. She told me it is designed only for children who are 'gifted and talented' in art and no one else.

I'm a bit annoyed about that. Not the fact that my DD wasn't chosen but the fact they are basically creating an elitist group of children and separating them from the rest of the class who are deemed 'not good enough' to join the art club.

Surely if you're 7 and you like doing art then you should be encouraged?

Sorry, I knew I shouldn't have come on here again, particularly after a large glass of red! I really am logging off now.

I am sceptical of an art class for gifted and telented 7 yr olds.

I am sceptical of a football club or any sort of school club for gifted and telented 7 yr olds.

No, an art club "by invitation" is not wrong. I think it was wrong to advertise it along with all of the rest of the clubs however.

Children with a particular talent need to be encouraged and nurtured, above and beyond the basic provision of the school. Some children are offered the opportunity to take part in maths challenge days, or debating competitions, or sports teams. An invitation only art club is simply the equivalent - it recognises those children who have talent in a particular area, and gives them the opportunity to work at a higher level.

Of course children can show a talent for a particular subject at age 7, poinsettydawg. At 7, I already showed an aptitude for singing, which surpassed my peers. I went on to study music at the highest level.

Openbook, the point is that you did audition for the solo parts. I fail to see the difference between that, and Seeker's music group. You selected children on the basis of their ability.

i would have no problem with my dc's school having an invitation only art club, but i do think it's a bit off for it to be advertised to the other pupils when most wouldn't get the chance to take part, so i can totally see where you are coming from on this. my dd is 7 and sees art as being her thing (but she's not g&t), she would be gutted if there was an art club and she was told she couldn't go.

dh would never have been considered to be g&t at school, so he too would have been excluded from any 'invitation only' art club. never held him back though, he's the president of the royal society of portrait painters, and been exhibited in the national portrait gallery many times.

Yes, some can show a telent. Of course they can. But many have some talent but it is not particularly evident. And many don't show much talent but their keenness to learn and their determination makes them very good at something.

I am not convinced that hand picking gifted and talented clubs for 7 yr olds has any merit.

Also, I wonder how many artistically gifted and telented 7 yr olds show this talent because they have already been to art clubs or because they have an arty parent who has done lots of art with them, etc.

re artistically - that's not right, is it

But lucykate the lack of joining a G&T art club has hardly held him back has it?!

It's a bit like saying "and here's what you didn't win".

But surely if it had been kept quiet and the OP had found out about it she would have been posting on here about how the school had secret clubs?

I don't think that the school can win on this one!

Surely a child is gifted and talented from birth? It's not something you can develop, I don't think.

I doubt it has been proven that all G&T arty people were like that from birth.

And I doubt you'd spot it easily in a 7 yr old. For example, the kids with excellent fine motor control would probably appear to be much much better at many types of art without being g&t at it.

I suspect any school would only have this sort of club for show, to ostensibly prove that they are supporting the g&t kids.

Well I think it's ridiculous getting upset by this Mark and I do think it's because you are bitter she wasn't included.
So imo YABU, infact get a grip,... your dd wants to do art, then get creative at home, there nothing stopping you.
Our school also sends out a huge range of clubs every term, many are for the masses, gardening, show club, netball, football etc
then there are the clubs for those in a team, or G&T, and yes we have art, music and maths.
Then there are the clubs for those needing extra help and there's even a homework club for those dc who are in trouble for not doing their homework...
ds1 is in many of the invited clubs...ds2 is in none!
Should I go and complain do you reckon? or should I just be grateful there are clubs available, loads of interesting clubs should he choose to participate.

Openbook, our school does a musical a year by open audition too. And a carol concert. But the Singer's Club learn how to do the sort of harmonies that you only get by being a small group working hard together and by really enjoying singing. The soloists in the shows often aren't Singer's Club members. But the group that does the harmonies to Oh Come All Ye Faithful at the Carol Concert are.

Totally agree it's most likely about ticking boxes about g&t provision.
Not sure how being g&t from birth in any subject could ever be proved?
I think g&t sounds more exciting than it is it's not really about child prodigies which are very rare, or any indication of future direction, more about catering for the top few in each year relative to their peers. And surely it makes sense that children with highly developed fine motor skills would be better at art? Sure inspiration and creative ideas are important too but being able to manipulate tools with precision is a huge part of it.

I am not bitter.

I stated in my initial post that I was not bitter about it.

We do plenty of art related activities at home, and cooking and painting and sewing and writing etc etc etc.

My beef is the fact this club was advertised as a 'club', when you cannot join it if you love art and want to do art, and the fact 2 children were picked from many, in front of the other children thereby suggesting that if you weren't picked you are obviously rubbish.

i don't think markstretch is being bitter about it, that's not the point. the point is more about the fact that this club was advertised to the whole class/school, when actually it is not open for the whole class/school to attend.

how is a 7 yr old supposed to react to that?, 'oh look, here's a really interesting after school art club we are running, oh but you can't attend because you haven't been invited'. i know how my 7 yr old would react, she would be upset. (dd does in fact go to an art club btw, on a saturday at the local high school)

Miggsie: "when DD makes a cat from clay it is amazing, while some other ones are a bit like Picasso moulds a cat" - err, forgive me, but are you saying your DD's artwork is better than Picasso's?

YANBU. Calling it "The Art Club" and advertising it for all the children to see does make it sound as though it is open to all, and it would be discouraging for a child who then shows an interest to be told they are not welcome. It could be enough to put some children off art for years to come. By all means have clubs for children at a certain level, but make this clear at the start and provide for everyone else too.

Yes, it was advertised as a 'club'

But didn't you state in your OP that, after "art" was listed "(invitation only)"

And you don't need to be G&T at reading to understand that means you have to be invited to join the club.

The school was simply stating all the clubs they ran, whatever the criteria. Your DD could easily have found out from the 2 people invited to join in her class that they were in a secret squirrel art club. Much better I think for the school to be upfront.

I am quite amused by people's suggestions that the school should also run a general art club. Er yes. And what room would that be held in? A school isn't brimming with free rooms, quite the opposite. Classrooms need to be cleaned, or used by the teacher for prep. Should the general art club replace another club then? Even though art is done as part of the school curriculum and something like chess may not? And who is going to run the general art club (for no money)?

Being G&T in art does not equate to being good at drawing, and vice-versa. Fine motor skills are a tiny part of the assessment process.

There is a general idea that art if for fun, it's an activity and anyone can have a go. This does not mean everyone reaches the same National Curriculum level.

There is progression in art which requires (specialist IMO) teaching, and if a 7 year old is working at level 5 for example, it is much harder to teach him what he needs to do in order to progress to level 6 whilst teaching a mixed ability class of levels 1-4. Not impossible, but difficult. Hence the classes.

If the G&T art class should be questioned, then all other G&T provision in the school should also. I'm not saying this would be a bad thing to do, but art has long been part of the National Curriculum and justification of its gravity as a subject should no longer be necessary.

But on the other hand, why put the art club with the list of clubs anyone can join, but not mention any other G&T provision on this list?

"If the G&T art class should be questioned, then all other G&T provision in the school should also."

Research has shown that a disproptionate number of top-flight athletes are born in the autumn/winter. It is believed that when schools select pupils for sports clubs, they pick the bigger, more physically developed and stronger pupils i.e. the oldest from the school year. These pupils then get help and support to develop their skills further and as they progress through the school they leave their younger friends further behind.

Could something similar happen in other areas, including art - perhaps those with better fine motor skills get the extra art help and so develop faster than their peers?

It does seem unfair, but as the clubs are run on a voluntary basis by teachers, I'm not sure that it would ever be possible to offer specialist tutoring in small groups for all pupils in state schools.

It's a shame the school put it on the list.

But by seven, I am afraid children should be coming to grips with the idea that talent varies enormously, and that enjoying something isn't the same as excelling at it.

I agree that there have always been invitation only type clubs (even when I was at school, which was a long time ago!), it's just that they weren't called that then and weren't after normal school hrs. The football team, orchestra, recorder group etc, were all made up of pupils who were selected on ability.

However, imo art is different. Art is very subjective and everyone can produce a piece of work which means something to them. Whether it's good or not is very subjective and I don't see how it's possible to measure artistic ability at the age of 7 (although I do understand that there are guidelines associated with the school curriculum).

MarkStretch- I understand your objections, but in the context of the school environment it doesn't appear possible for every child to join the club. Maybe your DD could set up an art club of her own with a few friends and have something at home?