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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Original poster

AIBU To think that if you are not on a doner register you should give up any rights to a donated organ?

324 replies

littlemoominmamma · 04/12/2009 14:04

Do you think this would be a reasonable idea? If you have an organ donation card you should be entitled to an organ.... if not then that is your choice?

OP posts:
curiositykilledhaskittens · 07/12/2009 22:22

twofalls - you can't know how I'd feel about anything to be fair. I understand this is a subject close to people's hearts but asking people who have been close to someone who died waiting for a transplant to decide about these things is like asking a murder victim's family to decide the punishment for the murderer. Emotion compromises clarity. Sometimes the decision would be fair but much more often the decision would not be.

Obviously there wouldn't be as big a problem with donation but this would be at the expense of people's choice and rights and it it would exploit some people - people with disabilities, mental illnesses, learning difficulties e.t.c. The whole thing would have to be administrated.

I really believe that if I or someone I loved died waiting for a transplant I would not feel angry because a transplant is not an entitlement. If you are seriously ill you are seriously ill, anything someone can do to save you is a bonus. It is only very recently we have been able to successfully carry out transplant surgery and it is a developing field, no-one has a right to a new organ.

frakkinaroundthechristmastree · 07/12/2009 22:32

The bank blood before surgery is interesting. Do you know if you can do that if you're barred from donating in the first place, not for any illness you have but because you received a transplant/lived in Mad Cow country?

I ask because I would happily do that before surgery if my nasty transplanted possibly mad cow infested blood is only going to be used for me.

DaddyJ · 07/12/2009 22:33

UQD!

MrsMerryHenry · 07/12/2009 23:18

curiosity - yes, of course there's the risk of mistakes with the opt-out system; but then that's the nature of humanity - we all make mistakes, no matter what systems we adopt to solve our problems. No system can be perfect but you've got to choose which evil you're prepared to live with. If the primary concern is occasional administrative errors and accidentally using someone's organs without permission (as opposed to lots of unnecessary deaths because there are no organs), as unfortunate as that might be, I think it's a pretty minor concern in the grand scheme of things.

You're right to say that we don't have a right to an organ when we need one; but then there's a huge range of things which we expect/ get without actually having a right to them. Organ donation is a matter of societal/ community responsibility, which means it's the responsibility of every individual to donate. Similarly we don't have the right to have someone call an ambulance if we're caught in an accident, but we expect it because it's a matter of community responsibility.

I would be happy to put my DCs on the register - in fact I was thinking about it just the other day. I was thinking about a Pedro Almodovar film in which a mother has to decide whether to donate her dead teenaged son's organs and it occured to me that it would be far preferable to make that decision well in advance of need than to have to decide on the spot. It would be a small but significant comfort to know that my child's body was able to save another's.

mybabywakesupsinging · 07/12/2009 23:28

I know it was a few pages back but couldn't let this go...
"they could never be persuaded by the offer of many thousands of pounds to send one of my organs off to the Middle East/Russia etc".

The trade in organs is driven by rich people from the western world going to India/China etc to buy organs there. Because, for example, life on dialysis is unbearable for them. Or they know they are likely to die while waiting for an organ.

The donors in these countries are paid relatively little and have been shown to return quickly to their pre-donation debt level. In some countries the purchased kidney comes from condemned criminals and may well carry viral infections.

Suggesting UK doctors sell organs is so far from reality it is weird.

WobblyPig · 07/12/2009 23:49

It is not just ' rich people' who buy organs. I know a number of my patients financially crippled by the disease using money form the sale of parents houses for example to buy organs - typically from their ' home land'. One of my patient's parents gave her 20k to get a kidney in China. She got it and it worked but a mistkae back in the UK led to the loss of this organ. When you are facing death or the prospect of life on dialyis ( a living death for some) many people find the money. They are only rich in comparison to the people from whom they but the organs but often very poor in this country.

GColdtimer · 08/12/2009 07:38

curiosity, I don't feel angry. I just feel sad that there are probably people more than happy to donate who just have't got round to being on the register and if we had an opt out system lives would be saved.

I also completely agree with MrsMerryHenry's post.

pranma · 08/12/2009 08:17

I have had cancer so my organs arent suitable for donation.I cant give blood either so do you think I should be denied a transfusion?

noddyholder · 08/12/2009 08:57

Wobblypig my parents considered the same for me when I was 19.desperate

Original poster
littlemoominmamma · 08/12/2009 09:52

If you are a perfectly healthy normal person do you think it is o.k to claim benefits if you have decided you simply don't want to work? or does that seem selfish?

The NHS is not free, it is paid for by taxpayers. Transplants are not given to everyone, if you are a drug addict, alcoholic, heavy smoker you will be at the bottom of the list.

If you are a perfectly healthy normal person do you think it is o.k to claim the benefits of a transplanted organ if you have decided you simply don't want to donate yours BEFOREHAND? or does that seem selfish?

OP posts:
curiositykilledhaskittens · 08/12/2009 12:04

The deaths are not unnecessary though, these people are dying anyway. A transplant might save them but they are not entitled to it. Dying is the norm and having a transplant/being saved is a bonus.

I would be perfectly prepared to live with the possibility of my husband or one of my children dying on the transplant list because there is an opt in system. I would not be prepared to live with one of my children or my husband being given an organ that was taken rather than freely given. An opt out system would mean the majority of organs would not be freely given.

mrsmerryhenry - all about my mother is my favourite film.

Providing your own blood to be used in your own operation is unbelievably sensible. An opt in system would exploit people who were not able to make the choice. No-one has addressed this point. Why set the system up to exploit these people?

curiositykilledhaskittens · 08/12/2009 12:05

*opt out! lol

jeee · 08/12/2009 12:11

My sister was on a transplant ward - actually she had two liver transplants (and died waiting for a third). A woman in the next bed had had both a liver and a kidney transplant, but she and her family refused to go on the donor register, because they felt it was a bit yucky .

curiositykilledhaskittens · 08/12/2009 12:17

littlmoominmama If you were perfectly healthy you wouldn't need a transplant.

I think much better for someone to have transplanted organs when they were not willing to donate than for someone to have their organs taken without their permission. Just like it is better for some people to scam the welfare benefits system than it would be to make it stricter so that it didn't help those in need. Scamming and selfishness is a part of life, frustrating as it may be I believe it is only right to exert control over your own life and not try to control others.

WobblyPig · 08/12/2009 12:18

Actually littlemoominmama - you're not correct about being bottom of the list if you are durg addict, alcoholic, smoker etc. There are strict criteria if your lifestyle will seriously limit either the longevity of hte organ or your life with that organ you will not be placed on the list. If however you are on the list then your lifestyle is not considered.

VirginPeachyMotherOfSpod · 08/12/2009 12:19

I'm a supporter of opt out. The thing where a relativecan override you is wrong as well IMO,I know a few people types who wopuld veto their adult childs wishes because of their preference- FIL and MIlm certainly would DH.

I'm a massive advocate of anything that gets people signed up and I want a way to ensure that nobody can say no becuase theya rereally upset or don't agree with my choices. My cousin died waiitng for a heart aged 6, I don't want that to happen again- the riple effect Misdee desribes is big in both situations- in her case it cementeed a family, in ours it broke a marriage ad the Mum is now childless (she could no longer cope) and having a breakdown somewhere. Nobody knows where.

unfitmother · 08/12/2009 16:12

jeee that's really bizarre!

noddyholder · 08/12/2009 17:13

The top and bottom of the list is a bit of a fallacy as most organs are given to the closest match wrt blood tissue type and donor to recipient height weight ratio.If you are on the list you are on it and your lifestyle is not really an issue.I wasn't exactly a teetotal angel and have had 2!

misdee · 08/12/2009 22:34

for hearts, there are two list. the normal 'need a heart as will die in a year'

or the

'desperatly needs a heart as has less than a couple of weeks left to live'

being placed on the second one was very scary and worrying for dh. it was what saved him, but knowing why he was on THAT list, was very worrying

noddyholder · 08/12/2009 22:46

misdee how is peter now?

MrsMerryHenry · 08/12/2009 22:50

curiosity - isn't Almodovar brilliant?

You said: "Dying is the norm and having a transplant/being saved is a bonus." - but to follow that argument to its natural conclusion we may as well close all medical care to those who are not willing or able to pay for it. Health care of all sorts is a bonus - just try living in the USA if you're not rich - and yes, of course dying is as normal as breathing (and good Lord, I've had my fair share of deaths of close relatives so I'm really not 'afraid' of it these days) but that doesn't mean we shouldn't do what we can to save people who have the potential for a healthy life.

On a lighter note, did you see 'Volver'? I was really surprised by Cruz's performance - she was excellent!

secretgardin · 08/12/2009 23:18

i discussed this with my husband and son when we joined a new surgery and we all are registered as organ doners now. the only thing we opted out of were eyes (feel a bit guilty about that one), but too personal. i definitely feel that there should be more information avaiable on organ donation, but in the end it comes down to the individuals' beliefs. what if it was a small child that wasn't registered yet, would you deny them the chance of an organ?

MrsMerryHenry · 08/12/2009 23:22

I have to say that although I'm on the register, I hesitate to offer my body to scientific research. I know it's crap of me, but this is because I went to uni with medics who would come back with tales of the cadavers they'd dissected - still makes me shudder - just the thought that someone like them could be having a rummage around my insides and then laughing about it afterwards!

curiositykilledhaskittens · 09/12/2009 10:07

I never saw Volver because I have been having far too many babies and for far too long and have not gotten around to it! I love Almodovar - All About My Mother is my fave by a long shot. First saw it in a little independent cinema in San Francisco because I have a very cool and exciting life gay american uncle who loves film.

I don't think recognising that illness and death are the norm is an argument against treatment, just an argument against feeling entitled to treatment.

lancaster · 09/12/2009 10:17

as far as I understand family actually have no legal right to veto organ donation, but medical staff would generally follow their wishes.