To think that the welfare state is too generous if people in council flats have way more stuff than those on middle income can afford (no really lets have a discussion)

[splodge2001]

Maybe it's where I live (central london) maybe it's me (hmm, I don't think so) and It's definitely something that's been ruminating around my head for a while. An argument I've tried to unpick but I always come to the same conclusion.

I'm sure I'm going to be lynched but I'm keen to get other people's perspective on this....Here we go...

Where I live private housing is expensive and intermingled with social housing. It's hard to tell the difference between the social housing and the private dwellings. Certainly on the open market they fetch very similar prices. I'm feeling grumpy because we (DH and I) pay a lot of tax which goes to the people down the road in social housing, of course we should pay tax to support those on low earnings BUT, it does start to grate when though people in subsidised housing seem to have much bigger disposable incomes. eg. everyone I know who lives in the council flats near us can afford a car, we cannot. They can afford several holidays per year, we cannot

Isn't the welfare state just a bit too generous to enable those on low incomes to afford more than those on higher incomes? Surely the point of welfare isn't to subsidise cars or 42inch TVs.

I'm sure I'll be told to move out of London if I want more but this doesn't address the issue that I'm raising. Why should I subsidise people living in central london when I cant afford to live here myself.

Analogy moment....

I have 5k and would like to buy a car, instead I'm forced to give up my 5k to the government, who instead gives it to someone else so that they can buy a car. Boo hoo!!!

Go on let the stoning begin!!!!

wow a proper old fashioned DM style ding-dong

OP YABU and a bit fick to boot

yea I guess if housing is also included, especially if you live in an expensive area (they take the "average" of each property size to work out the rate that anyone entitled to that size property gets) then the LHA rate could be quite high.

"kid you not, the job centre advised them they will be better off." well in that case they probably are taking the p*ss .

And what about if you have lived in social housing with your working class parents all your life? Its likely you also went to a crap school, and likely your education was crap and likely you may just do what everyone else does and live in this shitty system.

Yes the system can change but that would mean little Beyonce going to the same school as Hermione...and posh parents wont want their little darlings mixing with the oiks will they?

RAAAHHHH!!!!!

Im off to watch Robert Pattinson on Paul O Grady...

Actually my oiks went to the local very good comp ..not all estate schools are bad ..but thats another auguement thread

I dont begrudge people who need it claiming benefits or living in council accomodation. I was a lone parent when DS was born, lived in a council flat on Income Support - it was bloody awful.

I am now married with 3 children and a DH who works all the hours god sends - and we are still bloody broke. After we pay full rent, council tax, electricity, oil and fuel bills we are left with about £120 to feed and cloth a family 5.

However, I think the OP is misinterpreting the situation.

The problem is not what benefit claimants are receiving or where they live, the problem is the cost of private rents which middle-income families not in council properties have to pay. In my area, they are extortionate and houses to buy are priced way beyond our reach so we are stuck renting a tiny house that needs alot of work and costs us a fortune and cant really do alot about it.

Maybe if the government did something to make private renting more affordable (not sure what), this would go some way to resolving the problem.

I think there's two levels of people on benefits, the honest ones who struggle then the other ones who lie about everything.

I know a family, Mum and Dad are not officially living together so have 2 council houses, one is rented out, Mum claims for being a single parent yet works cash in hand as well. Dad stays with Mum unofficially, claims Disability yet also works cash in hand.

I also believe that people should not have been allowed to buy their council houses at reduced prices, it should have been market value, know quite a few people who bought flats for 8K and sold them 3 years later for over 90K (and I bet the situation is a lot worse in the SE) this housing stock was never replaced so it is now near impossible to get a council house.

OK they may have a lot of disposable income but one day I think it will catch up with them, who wants to live constanly looking over their shoulder?

I also have an uncle who as long as I have been alive (34 years) has never worked and has never aspired to, he has a council flat and as long as he has beer and food money that's all he cares about

More Spam, I grew up in social housing with working class parents...and now I have a degree. You can either feel sorry for yourself or you can dedicate yourself, work hard and move up the ladder.
Yes theres a sense of repression surrounding the whole ordeal. I could have sat and moaned or I could do the smart thing and take responsibility for my own life. My mum is still on benefits, doesn't mean I have to be.

"I think there's two levels of people on benefits, the honest ones who struggle then the other ones who lie about everything."

Unfortunately they all get tarred with the same brush.

You get the same people earning too, who get extra money through less legitimate means. On every level of society.

I don't think it's to do with having "priorities".

Endless buying on credit/fiddling/cash in hand jobs probably nearer the mark.

Although in fairness the whole thread should have

this

It's the "Captain Picard facepalm" for the new decade - what do you think?

"More Spam, I grew up in social housing with working class parents...and now I have a degree. You can either feel sorry for yourself or you can dedicate yourself, work hard and move up the ladder."

It's not always about feeling sorry for yourself. (I know I'm looking at it from the point of view of having a disability, so different to jobseekers) This recession isn't helping much either. Hopefully when things pick up again people will have the means to get away from benefits, which I'm sure will be relief to most of them.

But what you've done sounds excellent CarryOnDancing

actually carryondancing - the issues are much deeper than "pull yourself out of it or not".

I can't remember who wrote it now (and as my OU course is done and dusted my course books aren't to hand) but there's a book called "Estates" which talks about the "wall-in-the-head" that people on Estates often face, and the difficulties in pulling yourself out of it.

Basicall wall in the head is what many East Germans found happening to them when the wall came down and they had access to everything in the West.

I was on benefits this summer. I had two caravan holidays, a new tumble drier and am starting driving lessons.

I must be fucking loaded, right?

Um, no. My dad paid for them.

Are people stuck on benefits not allowed presents?

this is a fairly decent article about the wall in the head i Germany - although it's focussing on how it's slowly being eroded rather than the issues that were there.

The writer of estates (who was one that got out of an estate and did well for herself) likens it to this for people growing up in a cycle of poverty/benefits claiming/low income households.

Errr...Carry On, I actually am a single mother of 3, grew up on a council estate with parents that did not value education and saw nothing wrong with living off the state and my school was crap. However I got married and bought a house, our business went bust and we lost everything. I am back in council housing after 2 years in temporary accomodation with ceilings falling on our heads and I am in full time education and both my eldest children are excellent students. However, I know that statistically its likely that those on benefits are likely to stay there if that is the environment they grew up in and do not receive a decent education. Not everyone is the same....

NO COLDITZ you are NOT allowed presents on benefits

I would say that 90% of all the students that my ds went to school with have gone on to further education ..not all estates are the same

Haven't read the whole thread, but my own feeling is that council housing should only be for those truly in need, ie on a very low wage, and once the household income goes over that level (let's say £30k), then either they pay the market rent for the house, thereby making more money available to build more for people down the ladder, or they have to move out into other accom.

Having said that I may be talking out of my arse as I don't personally know anyone in council/LA housing.

The house I have now been allocated is lovely, one of ten new builds. Luckily my Dad paid for my carpet and a new bed and a cooker. The other nine families have got naff all. Soem are still cooking on little camping stoves in their kitchen after being turned down for a grant. They have no carpet, and we are all helping each other out with Freecycle collections. I have a massive TV (not a flat screen), given to me by a friend who bought a plasma.

My car was also given to me by my Dad, as I have 3 kids in 3 different schools because of my housing situation. Arent we on our arse enough without being kicked by people who have no idea what its like?

Im hoping to go to Uni next year when I finish my Access course as I have no qualifications, yet I feel like the scum of society...

for many, the real value of living in social housing is that it is a secure tenancy.

private renting for many means moving a lot, and the expense and upheaval of this is enormous.

Hey Expat, you're back!(in case you hadn't realised).

We were wondering where you were the other day

The thing is £30k means a hell of a lot more in Newcastle than it does in London. My rent for my council house is almost £700 a month here in Kent. I bet its nothing like that in Newcastle...

i just got back today, mumble! first, my laptop died and then my former landlord had to fix it. then, i couldn't really use teh dongle because the signal was so bad i kept losing it, not allowing the machine time to istall security updates.

then, i had to have a phone line installed, and wait for a BT engineer to do this.

then wait for a home hub.

whew!

expat - the reason there is so little decent affordable social housing about is the council sold them all off in the 80s and 90s for peanuts and where did the money go? Back into building more houses, no!

When our parents first got married, practically everyone had a council house, some stayed in them, some bought them, some moved. Nowadays there is virtually no chance of getting a council house even with DC hence this crazy private renting thing.

I think the thing is that everyone always knows "someone" who is fiddling the system therefore all those who are not are tarred with the same brush.