To think that the welfare state is too generous if people in council flats have way more stuff than those on middle income can afford (no really lets have a discussion)

[splodge2001]

Maybe it's where I live (central london) maybe it's me (hmm, I don't think so) and It's definitely something that's been ruminating around my head for a while. An argument I've tried to unpick but I always come to the same conclusion.

I'm sure I'm going to be lynched but I'm keen to get other people's perspective on this....Here we go...

Where I live private housing is expensive and intermingled with social housing. It's hard to tell the difference between the social housing and the private dwellings. Certainly on the open market they fetch very similar prices. I'm feeling grumpy because we (DH and I) pay a lot of tax which goes to the people down the road in social housing, of course we should pay tax to support those on low earnings BUT, it does start to grate when though people in subsidised housing seem to have much bigger disposable incomes. eg. everyone I know who lives in the council flats near us can afford a car, we cannot. They can afford several holidays per year, we cannot

Isn't the welfare state just a bit too generous to enable those on low incomes to afford more than those on higher incomes? Surely the point of welfare isn't to subsidise cars or 42inch TVs.

I'm sure I'll be told to move out of London if I want more but this doesn't address the issue that I'm raising. Why should I subsidise people living in central london when I cant afford to live here myself.

Analogy moment....

I have 5k and would like to buy a car, instead I'm forced to give up my 5k to the government, who instead gives it to someone else so that they can buy a car. Boo hoo!!!

Go on let the stoning begin!!!!

Madmissy - Why will you never be able to buy or rent privately? Not having a go, just interested.

I too live in social housing, helped me out of a bad time last year when I was made homeless. I work and pay my rent, but I live in a 1 bed flat (which is awful) with my daughter. I am doing my degree and will start full time work once that is finished, earning enough to rent privately. My aim is to get a good job, career and pay and then buy a house eventually.

Because I live with one less bedroom than I need (only way I could get social housing without waiting 3 years - even though I was made homeless) my rent is fairly low, so we can afford other nice things. We are not well off, but I do not claim state benefits and we have holidays, big tv, wii, playstation, laptop etc. When I am offered a 2 bed place the rent will be more, so I will have to cut back on things until I pass my degree and get a much better full time job.

"it's hard to ignore the amount of money spent on the social safety net "

did you look at the guardian link - and at the how little out of the benefits "pot" is spent on the benefits that seem to irk people the most - IS and JSA??

So people seem to be saying that its ok to keep those who are affluent in council houses

just build more homes

NO! Why should someone on the same income as me have subsidised rent and the right to buy a prime location flat for 20p??? its just not fair

I challenge anyone to say that it is

"there need to be better incentives to work and save"

Agree absolutely, goodnightmoon- but I think the solution is for wages to go up, rather than the subsistence level of benefit to go down.

Splodge, don't just accept that you will be worse off if more social housing is built. We are one of the richest nations on earth. Don't you feel like questioning the concept of there being just a little pot of money to go round? It's a line sold to us which generates exactly this kind of verbal attack on the poorest in society.

The right to buy has all but been phased out in London. There is still (AFAIK) a discount for council tenants who want to buy their property, but it's not a great one.

Also, many (London) councils are suffering a shortage of housing stock, and are not selling all their properties; in fact, many of them are trying to buy them back.

alfa - don't forget the big dots for housing benefit and child benefit.

splodge - the point of building more social housing is that there would be less pressure to buy homes if there was affordable and decent housing for rent, helping to make housing more affordable for everyone.

Now that you mention it, it does annoy me that my tax money subsidises other people buying houses (housing associations, etc.), helping to prop up the housing market and make it less affordable overall.

splodge you know (just about) ANYONE can go on the housing list - chances are if you're earning a decent income you'll never get high enough up the list to get one before you retire. And if you'll excuse me for making assumption I'd say if you have a mortgage on a central London home, even if it was bought 10yrs ago - then you're going to be doing "well" enough to not get very high up the list.

If things are REALLY that difficult financially speaking you could always consider doing what private renters all over the country do - moving to an area that's not as expensive

Or alternatively post on the "credit crunch" topic here on MN for some money saving/squeezing tips .

maybe it's cheaper to sell up and rent?

tethersend,

I agree with what you say broadly,

there are things that could be done to improve everyone's lot, efficiency savings are one

DH has just written a paper on the 4 billion wasted every year in the public sector on inefficient recruitment processes.

we could be more like sweden, where everyone pays more tax, and they all have great education and services

But to be like sweden we need smaller more tight knit communities because altruism only exists when you can tangibly feel that the money you give helps your friends and family.

It's a really interesting phenomenon and its one of the reasons why i think that people should live and work in the same area, so that they become really embeded in their local community.

child benefit is a "universal" benefit - ie anyone with children gets it regardless of income. This is a thread about social security benefits is it not?

And housing benefit is also claimed by many people who work.

Housing benefit, IS, and JSA (the 3 main benefits that seemed to be scowled at on MN in general} account for 20% of all benefits spending in the UK.

Compared to the 45% that is used for state oension........but I'm sure there would be many people that would be very angry if state pensions were cut any more or restricted.......

And child benefit doesn't even come from the same department - that comes under HMRC

Splode. I do know how you feel. I have had to live with no money, no way of buying nice new things, not buying expensive clothes etc. However, I find it terribly sad that you say you send your child into school with holey trousers. School uniform is so cheap, a pair of school trousers are £2 in Sainsburys/Asda. In fact I got dd's 2 pairs for £3 and they're lovely!

Clearly owning your own home isn't working for you. Could you downsize? Or you and your partner work longer hours? Get better jobs? Study part time to get a qualification to get better jobs?

If you are really struggling that much then perhaps you are living somewhere that you cannot afford.. perhaps you need to move to a cheaper area. If you are on really low income then you should apply to go on the council/ housing association register. You may be entitled to social housing too.

cheaper to sell up and rent. Not for many people.

We ended up buying because it was cheaper for us to pay a mortgage than rent (and we got an extra bedroom in the process as well).

Always

"If things are REALLY that difficult financially speaking you could always consider doing what private renters all over the country do - moving to an area that's not as expensive"

But why do I have to leave when others that I help pay for will get to stay.

To the lady with a 1 bed and a daughter

'its one bedroom less than i need'

The sense of entitlement from those in social housing is sometimes staggering

we also have 1 bed less than we need. so do thousands in london. i dont blame you personally for thinking this but it does confirm my suspicions that the welfare state is too generous

"its one of the reasons why i think that people should live and work in the same area,"

well in that case shut up with your whinging, as the cleaners, the carers, etc etc quite often can't afford to live in the area they work in because of high housing cost............unless of course they get help with their housing costs with LHA and social housing.

I didn't get to stay in the area I was settled in with my DS's when I was forced to claim housing benefit and find private rented accomdation.

You wouldn't be the first family (either "benefit free" or claiming benefits but living in private rented) that had to move because of housing costs, and you sure as hell wouldn't be the last.

Tbh splodge I am not sure what your income is. However, when I applied for council housing 2 years ago (I have JUST been housed by them) I had to go to an application meeting and take proof of income which I had to continue to send periodically during my wait for housing. Here they will not just allow anyone to apply - only those who cannot reasonably afford private renting or a mortgage.
In fact I did privately rent for a while at £700 a month in an ex-council house. Anyone from outside though might have assumed I was a council tenant as nothing distinguished the house I was in from any other in the street. I needed help with this rent as my salary is only about £900 a month. My council property (two floors up on a local sink estate)is just over £300 a month and I can pay this without any need for housing benefit. In my last house I was getting HB of just over £500 a month - so it works out cheaper for the tax payer.

Personally speaking - once I can afford to buy again I will - even if it is just a shared ownership property. While DS has the problems he does though this is just not an option for me.

Many people did well out the right to buy policy from the previous conservative govt. Nice properties were bought rapidly and not many of those remain in council hands - only the poorer properties (the likes of which I am housed in) but you know what - I don't care how dreadful this estate is - I am too grateful for the roof over my head and the cheaper rent which means I no longer need council and housing benefit.

Personally I think the big problem here is that many were sold the dream of owning their own home when largely most people cannot afford to due to the cost of living in this country. Splodge - I think maybe you are one of those sold this dream when in reality you cannot really afford it - when you take into account the repairs and upkeep a property needs. You bought into the dream along with many others and now find that it's more of a nightmare. I bought into the dream too once (long story about why I am now in council property). However, unless it is shared ownership I don't think I will ever buy again as in reality the money needed to do repairs is rarely there - especially if you have to buy in an expensive area like London. So yes I do think there should be more social housing - most people (and I suspect this includes YOU Splodge) cannot afford to buy in reality.

If moving out means that I have to commute, see my children less, continue to pay massive tax to build homes in central london where I work and where the people who live in social housing generally dont work - not because they're unemployed necessarily then I think my point is justified

My tax burden forces me out to benefit others

Don't get me started on public sector wastage. We've just spent unecessary amounts advertising for a teacher when the cover teacher wanted the job and was excellent at the job and fitted in brilliantly. So of course, everybody wastes time and money coming to interview only for school to (naturally) give it to the woman already doing a fantastic job. Drives me nuts!

Splodge, as argento said several pages ago, profit can and is made by Housing Associations. They build and maintain houses and charge tenants a fair rent which covers costs and any surplus can be reinvested in more homes. The 'market rent' which you are referring to is falsely inflated by the shortage of housing. I feel very angry about private landlords being paid housing benefit (entirely different from council rent) for their overpriced 'market rent'.

My Mum has lived in council housing for 50 years - over 40 in the same one. My parents never claimed benefits and so have, and Mum still does, pay her weekly rent. Over this time she has paid more in rent than I have paid for my mortgage. The difference is that I now own (remaining mortgage is tiny) a very nice 4 bedroom detached house and she owns - ermm - nothing. Her house will be returned to the council in time and it will be then available to another family to continue paying rent on. That house will pay for itself over and over again.

The people you should feel angry with is the Conservative government of the 1980s who worshipped at the altar of privatisation and who sold much of their stock of council housing very cheaply. I can't be angry at the tenants who bought theirs and sold for huge profits - most people do like the idea of money for nothing. I am proud of my parents for choosing not to buy theirs because they believed that social housing should be kept.

Building more social housing would be cheaper in the long run.

Can I also just clarify, you seem to be saying that you have a huge tax bill and that your DH and you have relatively high earnings, but that your DS goes to school with holes in his trousers - noticable enough for the teacher to comment - really?

I doubt very much that there are lots of doctors and lawyers living in council accommodation.

Glad I got this off my chest - this thread has made me feel very angry.

reality - to rent a house on this street identical to ours (they're victorian terraces so pretty much identical) would cost £600-650. Our mortgage is £480.

"DH has just written a paper on the 4 billion wasted every year in the public sector on inefficient recruitment processes"

doesn't sound like a minimum wage job at the very least - at least not of the variety you'd get round here .

"The sense of entitlement from those in social housing is sometimes staggering

we also have 1 bed less than we need. so do thousands in london. i dont blame you personally for thinking this but it does confirm my suspicions that the welfare state is too generous"

What is staggering, splodge, is your comment. In what developed world do you think it acceptable for children to share a bedroom with their parents?

Many do- that is not the point. One of my students (15)lives with her mum and SIX brothers and sisters in a 2 bed flat in central London. Does that make you feel better? It simply shouldn't happen. More social housing is needed.

Surely we should be aiming for better, not just ensuring that everyone in social housing has a worse quality of life than you? I don't think we should base policy on that...

I would say that anyone with a child "needs" an extra bedroom. Whether that be myself or a starnger, social housing or private renter / home owner. I have one bedroom less than I need, that's a fact.

I do not have a "sense of entitlement" as such, but I do believe there should be social housing available to everyone who is in need of it. For those who cannot afford to rent privately or buy. Clearly you fall into this catagory and therefore there should be a social housing available to you. I am only here because I was made homeless, and spend a few months living at my parents before I was "given" this awful place. But I do realise I am "lucky" and I pay for it myself, with money I have earnt. I have always worked and paid into the system, so why shouldn't I expect some help when I need it. I will only live here until I get my new job and then I will earn enough to rent privately. I would like to live in central London, but can't, so will carry on living in Kent as that is what I can afford. In fact, I am living in a flat that doesn't make any money from my rent, I am not actually costing anyone anything for living here.

Splodge, you haven't said anything about my suggestions for moving out of London or getter a better paid job / more hours to be able to afford to live in one of the most expensive areas of the county.

"I feel very angry about private landlords being paid housing benefit (entirely different from council rent) for their overpriced 'market rent'."

well it's not as bad now as it used to be. With the new LHA the full entitlement for everyone is the same flat rate for each "size" of house.

So (for example) everyone in this area that qualifies for a 3 bedroom house and full LHA gets £130(ish) a week, any shortfall has to be met by the tenant out of their other benefits.