To think that the welfare state is too generous if people in council flats have way more stuff than those on middle income can afford (no really lets have a discussion)

[splodge2001]

Maybe it's where I live (central london) maybe it's me (hmm, I don't think so) and It's definitely something that's been ruminating around my head for a while. An argument I've tried to unpick but I always come to the same conclusion.

I'm sure I'm going to be lynched but I'm keen to get other people's perspective on this....Here we go...

Where I live private housing is expensive and intermingled with social housing. It's hard to tell the difference between the social housing and the private dwellings. Certainly on the open market they fetch very similar prices. I'm feeling grumpy because we (DH and I) pay a lot of tax which goes to the people down the road in social housing, of course we should pay tax to support those on low earnings BUT, it does start to grate when though people in subsidised housing seem to have much bigger disposable incomes. eg. everyone I know who lives in the council flats near us can afford a car, we cannot. They can afford several holidays per year, we cannot

Isn't the welfare state just a bit too generous to enable those on low incomes to afford more than those on higher incomes? Surely the point of welfare isn't to subsidise cars or 42inch TVs.

I'm sure I'll be told to move out of London if I want more but this doesn't address the issue that I'm raising. Why should I subsidise people living in central london when I cant afford to live here myself.

Analogy moment....

I have 5k and would like to buy a car, instead I'm forced to give up my 5k to the government, who instead gives it to someone else so that they can buy a car. Boo hoo!!!

Go on let the stoning begin!!!!

You're very lucky to get rehoused for overcrowding, especially in London.

Oh thats a good one goodnightmoon

When I moved into this house is was the biggest pile of shite. The previous tennants had been evicted and had gone to town on the place before they left. There wasn't one door, or plug socket that hadn't been smashed to bits. All of the rooms had grafitti all over the walls and god knows what else and the wall between the living room and dining room had been knocked down.

The HA repaired some of the things and then gave me £80 in vouchers for paint. In the 5 years that I have been here I have decorated all of the rooms, had carpet/laminate fitted, replaced some kitchen doors, and paid £250 to have the wall between the living/dining room put back up. I keep my house clean and tidy, am a good tennant and make sure that my children also behave and respect their home.

So, if the HA were ever to make me move because they thought I earnt too much, then I'd be asking for all of the money I spent back, because I have saved them a fortune in repairs etc.

LOL at the idea of having social housing means tested!!!

Can just imagine that! With redundancy, relationship breakdowns, maternity leave, etc etc people would be in and out like yo yo's!

I should add that if I were ever in a position to buy a house, then I would, but I don't think people should be made to leave council housing one they reach a magical level of earnings.

no, you made your house a home, for your own comfort.

i rent privately and have sunk plenty of money into various places to suit myself and family. I don't get that money back.

Alwayslookingforanswers - is that £15.6bn for housing just housing benefit, or hb and council housing combined?

Housing benefit bill would of course be much lower if there was more council housing.

splodge2001, no, nobody is listening who counts. My DD had to nearly bleed to death several times as a direct result of overcrowding before we were moved. She was minutes from going away for no reason several times until she had her transfusions stabilised.

God knows how much that would have cost in the U.S.

it's so true though Orm. We're on benefits now, and yes its tough, but the value I place on owning my own home, even if no-one is going to come fix all the "broken" stuff is higher than any of the "perks" am "missing out" on by not being in social housing.

I was quite lucky that the landlady I had earlier this year before I got back with DH said i could decorate (as long as it was "tasteful") - I never got that far, but it never really felt like "mine" and I think even if I'd stayed longer and decorated the boys room and everything those feelings would never have gone it. I knew it was never "mine". When stuff needed sorting I had to wait for the agency/landlady to sort it. Despit the fact that I am very lucky to have friends that are fully qualified in the various areas that they "had" to be.

Having soeone come round and inspect your "home" every couple of months to make sure you're keeping it in good condition isn't much fun either.

No, I spent money on repairs to the house that the HA are responsible for.

If I do that and then choose to move that is one thing, but being made to move after imporiving the house for the HA, then erm no.

so what? my private landlord can give me notice at any time. putting money in a place doesn't make it yours.

If you can afford to rent privately, and someone else can't and needs a home, why should you get to stay in social housing?

Ormirian

Its an interesting point

If I think about it I would swap for the council estate down the road in a minute - I would have a large disposable income and be able to buy my flat for a greatly reduced price

i might even be able to afford private education, so yes id be better off in a council flat,

I'd even have a car - thanks harleyd for the offer!

Splodge, there are so many people completely dispelling your ideas of a cushy benefits lifestyle.
You seem to be deliberately missing all of this.
What exactly do you want done about the situation? Or this just a very personal "woe is me" thread?
Because from what I can see there are a fair few people willing to jump into your shoes.

I totally agree with Always. I did once own a house, and I loved it. I had lived in private rented accomodation before that, and there is nothing like owning your own home.

Anyway, xp decided to leave his job without even talking to me about it, and then refused to get another. The house was repossessed.

The house I am in now is in a slightly nicer area that the owned one, and has better schools etc, but if I could still be there nowm in that owned house then I would be.

I think that the halcyon days of the right to buy scheme have gone now, haven't they?

well it depends on what you mean by "over crowding".

Children under 10yrs old are counted as "half" so 2 of them get 1 room allocated to them. A family of 6 (or 5 if we assume single parent), 2 boys, 2 girls would be allocated a 3 bedroom house (you ever tried to squeeze a bunk bed into a box room - it's great fun ), and that would be the same whether the children were over 10yrs old or younger.

And don't forget that housing benefit (and council tax benefit) is also made to those who are WORKING but on low incomes. So that kind of screws up the "well social housing should only be for those who aren't working kind of shit". And it is shit, because the reason we have so many bloody "sink" estates in this country is because in years gone by the government thought it would be a bloody great idea to shove all the people of the same "kind" into one area with no social mixing, what a fucking marvellous idea. 1000's of people with low aspirations, disabilities, low levels of literacy etc all shoved into one place - well it keeps them out of the way of the nimbys I guess - but didn't exactly do a lot to give people in those areas anything to aspire to.

Just caused bloody great social problems.

I think so Lizzy, mostly anyway.

I wouldn't buy this house if given the chance because I don't agree with the idea.

"
If I think about it I would swap for the council estate down the road in a minute - I would have a large disposable income and be able to buy my flat for a greatly reduced price"

PMSL -- then do it - go and live your cushy life on benefits, of course you may not get a council property quick enough and be forced into private renting, where you'll probably finding yourself topping up the "set" LHA rate out of the money that's supposed to keep and your children warm and fed - but hey - it's so great .

Owning your own home is bloody great luxury and I am SO fucking grateful for the fact that we managed to get on the housing ladder when we did, and have managed to cling onto this house through all of the financial shit.

I've done the private renting as single parent on benefits, I've done the private renting in a couple fully paying their own way. I would do neither again unless it was the last option on earth.

Splodge - YANBU. The welfare state should be there to support those completely incapable of work not those who are capable of working but choose not to and it should provide the bare minimum required. If you choose not to work then imo you should not receive any benefits/council housing etc. I really dislike the attitude that the state should support people/provide housing etc and that it is a "right". Unless of course there is a really genuine need for it (i.e. they are physically incapable of work).

I spent some time working in Africa and quite a few (of the very poor) people I met there were astonished at the British welfare state, they thought it was wrong - their attitude was you work as hard as you possibly can doing whatever (usually v menial) jobs you can find, if you can't find work then your family should support you and only if you are really badly disabled & have no family should the state then help. I found this a refreshing attitude from people who really had very very little in comparison with people on benefits here.

Also I am surprised by the number of people on here who object to detailed questioning about their disability - someone, I cannot recall who, complained that they had an "undiagnosed" back complaint and why should they be made to answer questions about it. Well sorry but if your doctor cannot confirm that you actually have any medical problem which means you cannot work then imo you should not be entitled to benefits and you should certainly expect a rigorous examination/questioning about it.

Ok rant over. And no I don't read the DM, I read the daily telegraph which is probably considered even worse on here...

and HAHAHAHAHA at affording private education. I scrimp and save like a frigging lunatic just so my DS1 can have the violin lessons at school - £25 a term.

"tethersend - you really need to brush up on the tax system, and the role of the government and the electorate in determining it."

goodnightmoon, the only difference is the system we are living under is not 'feudal'. We are stiil a monarchy, no?If you don't like the way the government spend the tax money (not your tax money), then elect another one.

I think you'll find that is how a democracy works

"God knows what tethersend is going on about i think she thinks we're living under a dictatorship or communist China"

Christ on a bike, splodge... do you really not get it?
TAX IS NOT YOUR MONEY, IT IS THE GOVERNMENT'S.

I am not sorry for shouting, I really don't know how else to put it.

How this has anything to do with communist China is anyone's guess.

Baffling.

I was a bit at the private ed comment too Always.

Music lessons here are £73 a term

As lovely as this discussion is, I am going to leave it because it is taking an absolute age to post anything on here or for the page to refresh and it is driving me nuts.

oh fuck off cassell with your "some time working in Africa shit".

My DH IS "african" (you know it's a continent not a country right??). None of his family (and believe me it's ENORMOUS - even he doesn't know whether half of them are "cousins" or "aunts" ) think the British benefits system is wrong.

Ok

I really think this is more of a London thing. Because it's so expensive here when people's earnings increase they dont leave council property because they couldnt afford to buy in the area. these flats are not at all scussy

they are beautiful architect designed grade II listed. I'm not annoyed by the people who live in the flats, who work locally and are really in need. I'm annoyed at the lawyers, architects, doctors, other professionals that get to stay in subsidised rent

Oh they have, yes.