To think that this Times article about selfish mothers is vile

[mumbot]

www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/columnists/janice_turner/article6916343.ece

A bitter and one sided view of motherhood. Do you agree?

Although I feel some disquiet about articles coming from threads, I actually agree with a lot of the sentiments in the article. There is an awful lot of truth in it - the divine right of pushchairs etc.

As others have commented, probably a bad idea to splurge emotion onto a page - makes for an unbalanced article.

DandyLioness, yes she is.

Go online and shop saves ever having to encounter another human being.

Surely it was one, ignorant person who posted the offensive note? Why should one person's rudeness and ill manners provoke a tirad against all new mums?

I am about to have a baby and am, myself, dismayed at the sheer size of buggies. It's virtually impossible to find something lightweight suitable for a newborn that could be easily folded for use on public transport. I don't drive and although I'd like to walk, I have no means of crossing an extremely busy junction at the bottom of the road. This means that, on a wet day in an area with many children, I will probably have to watch many, many buses go by as each one only has capacity for one, maximum two, new mums wih these clunky 'travel systems'.

bellissima you say 'It also makes me furious to see perfectly able bodied folk jumping out of cars with blue badges without any disabled passenger/driver.'
Please remember though that many disabilities are invisible. Somebody posted on the other thread about their dp who was left a nasty note by someone saying he didn't look disabled and were going to report him etc - this often happens because some people are ignorant enough to think you need in some way to look disabled, or to have a wheelchair etc (not saying you are, just asking you to think about your turn of phrase here.)
I have an 'invisible' disability and I park in a disabled spot, get out of my car and walk into the supermarket in a way that wouldn't 'look' disabled. I then may need to sit down to catch breath or lie down for the rest of the day, but that's not seen. I get so at being judged by those who have no idea. I know some here with children with conditions such as ASD find the same, and it can be so demoralising and upsetting.

Good article, I thought, all in all, some points I take issue with but overall agreed.

I didn't like the sentiment of the article when I read it. I think when I'm very old and frail I would not park in a parent and child parking space even if there is a legal rule which says the disabled can park there simply because I was brought up to follow signs as I am sure the writer's parents were. However it's pretty rude to leave a nasty note and some of the elderly need to watch what they say. They can be very nasty and I can understand how they feel - I've had both my parents get ill and then die, my father with dementia in the last 4 years (not been that fun 4 years for me)and I know all about disability, ageing and also the depression and feelings being totally unable to move or even properly to think and remember makes you have. Depression in the old is something we need to deal with very carefully.

However the gist of the article was age trumps babies and I don't agree that should be so. I think there's nothing as hard as looking after three under 5s with no sleep. At least when you're old you can take sleeping pils or druggging drugs to ensure you sleep through the pain etc. When youv'e small babies you don't even have the luxury of that as the buck stops with you and you care for the child.

What we really need is more tolerance and more putting self second and less me me me. The elderly can be worse than young people for this but people of all ages are pretty bad at it. The concept that doing something you hate is good for you seem to be being lost. If the children whinge to me that a teacher was nasty or they've lots of homework or they're bored I would say - great, won't kill you, i life you have to put up with lots of things. It's good for your soul. As an individual adult if I couldn't park near by I try to make a mental turn in my brain to think - wow aren't I lucky, I get teh chance to walk further. If I were 85 I hope I'd have the same ability to perform that mental dynastics, positive thinking.

Good points Xenia, and suppose hadn't thought of it from the stance of age trumping babies.

But agree generally with the sentiment of the article which is that there is quite a lot of catering to/for children. How much of this is a marketing issue, such as how can businesses get the parent pound, but when people start taking it a bit too seriously, then it's time to take time for reflection which is what the journalist did.

I agree with her
I do think people make inconsiderate buggy purchases and then get huffy when told to fold them on buses
expect their child to have their own seat on a full bus rather tahn sit them on their knee

just because they have a child does not make them more important than a disabled person who needs a seat or the wheelchair space on a bus.

I use public transport all the time with a toddler and a baby in a buggy and am shocked that children are not told to sit on an adults knee when the bus is full.

I read her post on here about her parents and agreed with her entirely that the person who wrote the note had been out of order.

However, I HATE that article. It is bitter and twisted and very, very one sided.

What happened to a bit of common decency and wanting to help people on both sides.

I am 6 months pregnant, have terrible SPD and appreciate the P&T spaces, if they're spare, to get my 18 mo old of the car and to the supermaket door safely as I can't carry him at the moment. I will openly say I used P&T spaces for what they're intended for, shock horror.

Obviously, disabled people need to be close to the supermarket. The people who left the note were unreasonable and mean, but it's not the biggest issue in the world.

What does worry me is the amount of disabled people I have seen trying to park at our local supermarket, and they can't even manage to park in the extra large spaces and often park right between two. Now is this because they're being selfish and not considering other disabled drivers? Or is this because they generally can't manage to park in a MASSIVE space? If it's the latter, could they stop if a child stepped out into the road? This is simply an observation-something I have seen 5 times in 3 weeks.

I think it's a poorly thought out rant, like most of the 'columnist' guff in the papers.

'So your baby woke you at dawn, you?ve gained a stone, you?re short on sex or fun or ?me time?. Shuffle the playlist, sister. It will pass, all of it, quicker than you think.

I could say to her aged parents:

'So your hip needs replacing, you can't afford your heating bill and your grown up children no longer give a toss about you. Change the tune, old giffer. You'll be dead soon!'

But I'm not an unsympathetic bitch.

MrsMattie- very well made point.

I agree with a good proportion of the article, although I think it goes too far in villifying all parents.
The sooner P&T parking is moved away from the door of the shop and to equally large spaces further away, the sooner we will be able to move on to more interesting debates !
BTW, BC I once parked slightly 'wonky' in a normal space cos the person next to me had parked so badly. When I came out of the shop someone had left an abusive note on my car about my parking (the initially badly parked car had gone by this point). Some people have got nothing better to do with their lives it seems!

Why does rollmops think that the op of the original thread isn't jt when she has clearly said she is??

However the gist of the article was age trumps babies and I don't agree that should be so. I think there's nothing as hard as looking after three under 5s with no sleep. At least when you're old you can take sleeping pils or druggging drugs to ensure you sleep through the pain etc.

Having 3 under 5s is a choice; being disabled and/or elderly is not. I think that is one of the points that infuriates JT - parents choose to have children (mostly) then SOME of them then think that entitles them to behave inconsiderately. As a doctor, I have to say that it is also completely untrue to say that drugs can mitigate the all effects of age and pain. If only.

I agreed with many of the points in the article but what was very unfair was the implication that all parents behave like that. Only a minority do - it's just that they are so on your face that everyone notices them.

Don't you think it's a sign of a civilised society that we look after those who need it, be it the elderly, disabled, and those with young children. I have spent my life giving up my seats for elderly people, letting people with prams ahead of me, smiling at tired looking women with newborns crying on the bus.
When you have a baby of your own I don't actually think it's unreasonable to expect a bit of understanding and compassion from everyone else..

I have 3 under 5 (well, 5 and under) and I do think there are lots of aspects of being a mother that are easier now. What I object to in the article is the idea that it is specifically being a parent that has given people a sense of entitlement whereas in reality people accross the board are more likely to demand their percieved 'rights' without a thought for others. I am suprised how many people agreed with the article but stated that they didn't behave like that as if it wasn't aimed at them.

I think its a good thing that families are welcome in so many places. Its lovely to go out for lunch and have colouring pencils and highchairs provided. Its also lovely that an 86 year old disabled couple can maintain their independence due to the facilities provided for the elderly, infirm and disabled that didn't exist in the good old days when the old and the young were expected to be behind closed doors.

Yes I think that's very true, sprouting. The inconsiderate behaviour of a minority of parents is part of a wider trend in society. It's not that parenthood creates an excessive sense of entitlement, it's that some people with an excessive sense of entitlement become parents. However I do think that it's true that those people then use parenthood as an excuse for even more selfish behaviour.

I agree having children is a choice and being old and disabled is not (unless of course you've not exercised, drunk too much, got very fat, put strain on your hips etc etc and are ill when you're old because of those things... keep up the brain power, read, think, eat fish oil.... do all this now so that whenyour'e in your 80s you may be in better health).

I hope even very very tired parents with 3 children under 5 as we had at one point when we both worked full time and never had a single baby that slept through the night until it was at least two years old would be considerate to others, the old and others. Remember the story of the 5 children on the tube train with their father -jumping around, shouting hanging from the hanging straps.... someone eventualyl said - lively bunch.. and thef ather said, yes, we've just come from the hospital where their mother is dying. You never know what other people are suffering so give them some slack whether they're 85 or a parent with small children.

Mind you I cannot imagine how anyone would ever want to set foot in a shop. I was in Tesco the other day for a few things and hadn't been in a shop for about 6 weeks. If I were 85 or a young mother I'd order it all online. Do my system - order it and have it delivered when the cleaner is here. However to do that you need to ensrue you pick a well paid career, don't really on men for money, enjoy your work and always work full time even when theyr'e babies as it is heaps better and much better for children too. Win win all round and then when you're 85 you might even be able to afford your own driver or housekeeper.

lol@Xenia's comedy answers

I think it is foolish to compare old age with being a parent. Most people make a positive choice to have children, and most people have at most two. The first year is really hard, no doubt, but comes with all sorts of benefits. Most people love their children, and however awful they can be at times, they get huge pleasure from them. I had my children within 16mths of each other (accidentally mind, I'm not claiming any forethought) and so two years of our lives were really tough.

My mother is registered disabled from arthritis. She started to be in considerable pain in her 50's, and over time that has got worse and worse. She's had three hip replacements, and is about to have her knees replaced too. She is in pain most of the time, and can expect to be in pain (unless one of the treatments finally works) until she dies. There are no upsides to this. I don't consider 20-30 years pain and disability to be in any way comparable to the two years when I was short of sleep and stressed. Sure she is probably at the extreme of things (my father is pretty healthy) but many elderly people will have significant disability and worry ahead of them, and there is no "soon they'll go to school" type horizon ahead for them. My parents, luckily don't have poverty on top of aging, but even having a lot of money can't buy you a new body.

As a society we aren't terribly compassionate, because we are all too busy looking out for ourselves. That's bad for all those who need a little help, which is probably going to be all of us at one time or another.

i have serfs to put away my shopping too.

perhaps i shouldn't call my children serfs. meh, i've called them worse

Agree with SarfEast. Being an able-bodied parent of an NT child isn't as hard as being elderly and physically infirm; but it is still, quite frequently, more difficult than being an able-bodied person without dependents. It's perfectly civilised to acknowledge this and to make a few allowances.

I suspect JT spends a lot of time with tremendously privileged, well paid, powerful people; the bloated sense of entitlement she's witnessing is par for the course. Doubt she'd get such a strong sense of it if she stepped outside her social bubble.