To think dd's class mates are really naughty.

[Hando]

I have known since last year that there are 3 children in my dd's class that are very badly behaved. I see this for myself at morning drop off (parents at our school go into the classroom and read with their child until the bell rings) and see their behaviour at pick up time. Also, dd likes to tell me all that happens during the day.

Yesterday at pick up one of the dads said "has he been good today?" in front of his son, to the teacher. Understandably the teacher was a little put out, not exactly appropriate to discuss that infront of the child, but just said "he could try more and could be better". Dd later told me he'd been talking all the way through story time, running about the classroom and generally being naughty. One of the other boys was sent out of the classroom for repeatedly misbehaving. She has said to me that these 3 boys often do this, and I have seen their behaviour so know it is true. I upsets me as I do feel for the teacher, she only has 1 part time TA and a class of 30 must be difficult to handle alone.

Surely these children can't just be "allowed" to disrupt the rest of the class. Dd has said she often gets up and moves seats as she can't listen to the teacher if one of these 3 sits next to her. Yesterday she was unhappy as she missed the story at the end of the day as this boy spoilt it for them all.

My dd can be cheeky and naughty too, I am not claiming she is never badly behaved but she knows that she needs to be well behaved at school. These children are saying no to teachers, running around the room, refusing to sit and do their work, refusing to be quiet. If it were my child behaving like this I'd be mortified and doing everything I could to sort it out. That is not to say they aren't, I know, but one of the boys parents just drop him off each morning leaving him to his own devices until the bell rings. The other morning I caught him snatching something off a quiet boy who was really looking scared. The teacher hadn't noticed (30 kids and lots of parents in the room, so understandable that she can't see everything). He was pulling a face and didn't let go til he got the toy. Another day I saw him stopping my dd from opening her book tray and banging his into her hand, over and over. Both times I have told him to stop and that he was being unkind, but he didn't seem to care. Another one of them swears lots ( he came to dd's party last year and I was disgusted)... they are only 6!

I'm not sure what I can do though, I am assuming nothing... I just seems such a shame that my dd and the rest of her well behaved class are having their education disrupted in this way by these 3 boys.

I don't know how I would tackle their behaviour as their teacher - I did say that I came on here for a bit of a vent about my dd being upset by these 3 children causing havoc in the class on a regular basis. i am not a teacher, so have no idea how they deal with these kids.

Goosey, I am sorry to have made you angry, it wasn't my intention. What I said was these kids may either have Sn, have a crap homelife/parents OR their behaviour is for neither reason in which case it can be managed and improved in some way. There is a huge difference in not sitting still and quiet and being really badly behaved constantly Goosey

Coppertop, I do not know the details of the children in the sn class. i do meet the parents and the children on the way into school as the classes are nearby and their shre a cloackroom. Some of the sn children have extreme behavioural difficulties - often I have seen them punching and kicking out and the walls/teachers, shouting and screaming very loudly - having total meltdowns. I agree these children need the extra 1:1 support and a class of 30 children and 1 teacher couldnt possibly function if they were included without the extra support.

Hando, you are totally right about one thing, choosing is not the right word for children displaying this behavior.

As I have sat and entertained the brother of a child like the ones you described whilst he sobbed to his Mum about the things happening to him (note not the things he choose to do) night after night I can, categorically, state that not all children are like this because of SN, bad parenting or a "choice" they have made.

TBH the more you post the more you are underlining your ignorance - and the fact that you are never going to understand these poor children. It appears, to me, that you are just asking for validation of your views of these children. I think it has been adequately displayed that you are not going to get much of the here.

I don't even have a child affected in the way you describe and you have still managed to deeply offend me!

"i am not a teacher, so have no idea how they deal with these kids"

True, you are not, and the question was perhaps a little unfair- but you are a parent, and perhaps you have an idea of how you would tackle their behaviour in this context?

Also, I think you have to decide whether or not you trust the teacher to do their job. Your quote indicates that you do.

Hando, to be fair, I do understand your frustration at feeling the school environment is not delivering what you want for your dd. Have you tried discussing your concerns with the teacher and asking if they have strategies in place to deal with children who disrupt the rest of the class. They will not discuss specific children with you, but should be able to give you general details about what they do. If you are not happy with these strategies, talk to the head.

My problems were not your concerns for your dd, but your vilification of these boys and the assumptions you have made about them and their home life.

thetherend, hopefully they will be able to do something to stop them behaving so badly, rather than having the bizzare idea that some children ( although not sn and with no home/parent problems) cannot possibly help themselves in being naughty and there is no possible way that they can be encouraged to behave well. I personally do not agree with this.

As a parent I am fairly relaxed about discipline. I do not smack and try not to shout. However if dd is badly behaved she is warned once, then does 5 mins sat on her bed as "thinking time". Or if it's a regular thing then I might take her DS or Wii away for a day or two. I don't know how to deal with kids who smash their classrooms up or screm vile filthy swear words as I luckily have never experienced that, thankfully.

Coppertop - am presuming the "SN class" is either a unit with a mainstream school or possibly some sort of nurture group? It can be very difficult indeed getting a unit place, there aren't enough to go round all the kids with SN who might benefit from the smaller classes.

Hando - if a child is slower than my child at learning to read is that their fault or a SN? Not an SN I think we would all agree.

If you sat down and explained quantum physics to your dd would she understand? If not, why not? You have explained it to her. Is she choosing not to understand and to be willfully ignorant, perhaps it is because you as her parent have not explained it properly. Ds would understand.

Not all children intuitively understand behavioural norms or how to act in particular situations. You can explain it to them, but it takes time for them to get it. Time and understanding.

I deal with kids smashing up classrooms and scream 'vile, filthy' swearwords on a daily basis, Hando!

However, I agree that most children can improve their behaviour, and I wouldn't exclude those with SN and home problems. These are factors to consider when supporting children, but I think you will be hard pressed to find a good teacher who shrugs their shoulders, accepts inappropriate behaviour and does nothing.

It seems as if the teacher is tackling the behaviour through reward charts etc.- maybe a meeting with the teacher would ease your worries a bit?

I agree with MoreCrackThanHarlem, the school should be handling this behaviour appropriately. It's not for you or anyone else to judge the kids and their parents - who knows why they're behaving that way, it's perfectly possible they have undiagnosed SN. It takes a long, long time in some cases to get a formal diagnosis and apply for help. I would certainly speak to the school about your concerns, if children are suffering because the behaviour of these kids can't be managed then they need to do something about it. I'm actually quite staggered that it's the norm to have one teacher and part time TA to a class of 30 6 year olds. But here in Wales the foundation phase has been implemented (in most schools I think, certainly ours) up to the age of 7 - which means there's a high ratio of teachers/TAs to kids. Think it's 1 to 8??

Hando,

You have my sympathies. We had this with DD when she was in Year 1 - a combination of a teacher who struggled with discipline and 2 boys who ran riot in the classroom meant that DD finished the year a year behind average. She was not the only one and there where some very unhappy parents.

We did go and see the head who knew which boys I was talking about straight away. He shocked me a bit by going into their SN in detail, telling me how he was trying to get one of them expelled but his hands were tied and that there was basicly nothing he could do. From what DD said the boys never sat down and spent the majority of the day running up and down the classroom shouting and swearing.

I do feel sorry that some kids seem unable to sit down and learn, but its so unfair that the rest of the class suffers. We ended up paying for private tuition for DD. The head promised us that DD would have a different teacher the following year. We actually ended up taking her out the school.

Bear in mind the OP is judging based on observing behaviour at two key transition points, and on what her PFB reports to her mother on a detailed daily basis.
If the child is a reflection of the parent, it's unlikely to be an unbiased and accurate account of the day.
I have three highly-competitive, somewhat arrogant and insensitive children in my class,from possession-rich homes whose agenda is entirely selfish.
It's like having three cuckoos in the same nest, all gob.

Hando, who said that they should not be asked, expected or encouraged to behave better? I don't think anyone would say that a child should not be helped to improve regardless of the reason behind the behaviour. That still does not mean that you are right in your attitude to these children.

Changes to behaviour takes time, lots of time sometimes. I keep on about these children I know, I am honestly trying to get you to see, it does change, it just takes time. You cannot expect everything to be "fixed" after just a few terms in school. Especially when you bear in mind that starting school sets progress back, as does changing classes and a multitude of other things. It is a two steps forward one step back progression that is not helped by people assuming the worst.

stripeyknickers I have moved my dd to a new school for the same reasons. She enjoying lots of positive attention from a stress free (relatively) teacher who is not over stretched dealing with children who are unable to behave.

goblinchild are you a teacher? I find your comments just as distasteful as those made about children with behavioural issues, tbh. You are labelling these children as much as anyone on this thread, and if I were a parent of a child in you class I would be concerned about your attitude to some of the children in your care.

I do sympathise with the op.

Imagine a senario where a stranger (whom you know little about) blocks you in in a car park. When you politely ask them to move so that you can be on your way they reply with"F off bitch I will only be an hour or so!" then proceed laughingly to walk off, spitting and shouting.

Should we accept this behaviour because "we don't know if the adult has behavioural problems and therefore we shouldn't judge." Of course not, so why is it an acceptable message to give to children.

The football analogy is nonsense. Now if you were to say whenever we play football child x throws an absolute fit if anyone makes a mistake/doesn't win on his team etc then yes that would be the same because it is affecting everyone. However the op is not complaining that some children are less intelligent than her dd is she or less able. The same is true when several children disrupt lessons.
Not sure how you can approach this though as others have said there might be measures in place already to try and deal with these boys.

what's wrong with labelling children? we all do it all the time. somechildren are a handful but their parents should deal with it and not leave it to the school

Talk to the teacher. Ask about behaviour policy, implementation and support with application. Ask if she can get help from the school, Head, her manager.

If not would it help her and the class, for you to approach the Head?

Approach head on the matter. If no impact approach governors.

I taught for years in a school with no support from management. Parents were remarkably tolerant. I wished for a complaint at the top, as any made to the management from myself were not supported adequately. If manangement is the issue, then the governors need to recognise this and help the school improve. If they cannot, the LEA is where the buck stops.

All children deserve a good education, and this will not happen if their daily lessons are disrupted by appalling behaviour.

So if the parents haven't/can't/won't 'deal with it', ferncottage? The school needs to have adequate measures in place to manage and improve the behaviour, surely?

goblinchild are you a teacher? I find your comments just as distasteful as those made about children with behavioural issues, tbh. You are labelling these children as much as anyone on this thread, and if I were a parent of a child in you class I would be concerned about your attitude to some of the children in your care.

Oh yes, but nobody knows except the 37 million people on mumsnet. Because being a professional means I smile and care and pay attention and deal equally with all I am responsible for. Regardless of whether I like them or not.

muminthemiddle, they are SIX.

Perhaps the school should call the police? Really send a clear message?

well said maryz - am with you 100%

Children who behave badly don't always have a crap home life and don't always choose to behave this way. Some have SN (possibly undiagnosed) and cannot help it and some just take a bit longer to learn appropiate social skills. And if they do have a crap home life it's hardly the child's fault is it?

The problem could well be is that they are SIX. In a lot of countries they wouldn't even have started school yet. They would still be in kindergarten and learning through play. Because that is what's natural for them at that age. It is not natural for them to sit still and be quiet.

"They can make that change and behave better with support and encouragement from school and home."

So you agree that receiving rewards is helping to encourage and support them in how to behave better, yet you want these reward systems taken away. Logical

Hando, your kid sounds fairly docile. I am a LOT stricter than you. My children are disciplined for spite, cruelty, disobedience, the same as anyone else's. I do not allow chaotic behavior. Meals are nutritious ad happen regularly. I do not beat or otherwise abuse my children.

Ds1 is still disruptive in his classroom. Not hugely, since he went into year 2.

However, as a 1 year old he regularly slept in until 11 am after a 9pm bedtime - shall I assume that all parents struggling with their toddler's sleep are doing it wrong, or maybe they just don't care enough about their child to ensure it gets adequate sleep? Now I know that they had just about the same control over their toddler's sleeping pattern as I have over Ds1's inability to sit in one place quietly. NOW I have two children!

Sometimes I think the second child is the biggest shock - as in I haven't programmed my children quite to the extent that I thought I had. They really were born that way. Your daughter is naturally docile and compliant, so you can get away with being fairly lax about discipline. Lucky you!

11am Colditz? That kind of lie in is a thing I still fantasise about.

I think that the OP has taken a bit of a bashing in this thread - unfairly so. Yes, there are lots of reasons why children behave really badly at school, as have been listed and explained. But the fact is that there ARE children who are badly behaved at school because they have never been properly cared for, never been disciplined and have parents who, in the crudest sense, do not give a shit. And yes it's wrong and unfair to assume that all disruptive children have crap home lives or that they have SN. It's also wrong and unfair to assume that some parents of disruptive kids are doing all that they can to address the issue and therefore other children and parents affected by that behaviour should just put up and shut up. I've recently become involved with a child at DDs school and he is a classic example of a child whos parents just don't give a crap. He runs the streets until midnight, he roams around alone all weekend whilst they stay in bed, they refuse to even attempt to help him with homework. School are doing all that they can to help, but unless he has a TA or a parent volunteer glued to his side all day, he will still spit at the other kids, throw chairs and do his level best to wreck other childrens work and disrupt anything that he can. No - it's not his fault and it's not the fault of the kids who are to bloody scared to sit beside him. The school are doing all that they can to help - as much 1-1 support as resources will allow. But it's not enough. The parents need to be on board as well and they are not.