To think dd's class mates are really naughty.

[Hando]

I have known since last year that there are 3 children in my dd's class that are very badly behaved. I see this for myself at morning drop off (parents at our school go into the classroom and read with their child until the bell rings) and see their behaviour at pick up time. Also, dd likes to tell me all that happens during the day.

Yesterday at pick up one of the dads said "has he been good today?" in front of his son, to the teacher. Understandably the teacher was a little put out, not exactly appropriate to discuss that infront of the child, but just said "he could try more and could be better". Dd later told me he'd been talking all the way through story time, running about the classroom and generally being naughty. One of the other boys was sent out of the classroom for repeatedly misbehaving. She has said to me that these 3 boys often do this, and I have seen their behaviour so know it is true. I upsets me as I do feel for the teacher, she only has 1 part time TA and a class of 30 must be difficult to handle alone.

Surely these children can't just be "allowed" to disrupt the rest of the class. Dd has said she often gets up and moves seats as she can't listen to the teacher if one of these 3 sits next to her. Yesterday she was unhappy as she missed the story at the end of the day as this boy spoilt it for them all.

My dd can be cheeky and naughty too, I am not claiming she is never badly behaved but she knows that she needs to be well behaved at school. These children are saying no to teachers, running around the room, refusing to sit and do their work, refusing to be quiet. If it were my child behaving like this I'd be mortified and doing everything I could to sort it out. That is not to say they aren't, I know, but one of the boys parents just drop him off each morning leaving him to his own devices until the bell rings. The other morning I caught him snatching something off a quiet boy who was really looking scared. The teacher hadn't noticed (30 kids and lots of parents in the room, so understandable that she can't see everything). He was pulling a face and didn't let go til he got the toy. Another day I saw him stopping my dd from opening her book tray and banging his into her hand, over and over. Both times I have told him to stop and that he was being unkind, but he didn't seem to care. Another one of them swears lots ( he came to dd's party last year and I was disgusted)... they are only 6!

I'm not sure what I can do though, I am assuming nothing... I just seems such a shame that my dd and the rest of her well behaved class are having their education disrupted in this way by these 3 boys.

From the other perspective...

My ds is 6 and has issues with social integration. He is loud and can shout out when he should not - he does not really get why this is inappropriate. I suspect many other parents see him as you see the boys in your dd's class.

From our perspective, we have worked consistently with the school to address these issues. I do ask the teacher if ds has been shouting out and would do so in front of ds. It is an issue we are addressing together and one of which ds is wholly aware. On the flip side, the result is ds' social isoltation which breaks my heart and his.

I honestly do not know what more either the school or I could do. Ds just does not "get" the appropriate way to act in certain situations.

A little more tolerance from other parents would mean that I did not spend most nights in tears and might even help ds. Judging him and me does not achieve anything at all.

Trifle, fair enough, but that is one child, one situation. THat does not excuse a "more often than not" generalisation like you made

GooseyLoosey - you sound like a fab mum who is doing her best to make things easier for her child. I have a huge amount of respect for you and really hope that your persistence does pay off. I firmly believe that just because children may have social/behavioural problems at 6 that they should be given a chance and plenty of support. I know it is so hard but try to keep smiling

thank you mice, that's nice to hear. I find that the well behaved children I hear so much about cann be guilty of great cruelty towards ds in their parents eyes this is probably OK as ds brings it on himself. The point I am trying to get across is that so much goes on at school you know nothing about So by all means raise your concerns about a disruptive child with the teacher but do not assume that they are iredeemably naughty and that no one is doing anything.

As other people have said naughty child doesn't necessarily = bad parent. My son who's now 11 went through infant and primary school as the naughty/disruptive child. The child that ran around, disrupted and sometimes hurt other children. He has Aspergers syndrome, which was only diagnosed at 9. He now goes to a special school, something which we had to fight for for years.

I think you have no where near enough information to be getting on your moral high horse like you are. You know nothing more about these children than what you see at the school gate, and what your 6 year old tells you. You know nothing about their special needs (behavioural problems are special needs btw), any diagnosis they may have or be pending, what strategies the school are putting in place, their home circumstances or other agencies involved. And the one thing you do know is happening (the star charts) to try and help these boys you are complaining about!

thesechildren are having problems behaving well. Behaving well is something your daughter does well, so you cannot see why the other children are struggling with it.

Shall I turn the tables a little?

Imagine your daughter is struggling with football. The teacher knocks up a star chart to reward her every time she plays without complaint, or shows enthusiasm for the game, or scores a goal.

The OTHER children in the class do not feel this is fair. THEY play football well, and without complaining. Why should your daughter get special treatment?

Can you not see how easily this can be turned around?

Sorry Colditz, but I disagree, that scenario is entirely different. Football is totally different to being totally out of control and having no respect for your elders or authority.

Football is a hobby/sport, being able to behave well is essential for any child. As I said, my dd is naughty sometimes, sometimes really cheeky, but wouldn't ever behave in this way. It is not something you can "do" well. These children are behaving this way because either they have a crap home and parents who don't care or because they choose to behave this way. 6 is old enough to know better.

Hando you have no idea why the children are behaving they way they are behaving. To carry the football analogy further, how would you feel if someone told you "Motor skills are essential for EVERY child, so your daughter's inability to master football means you are neglectful or your daughter is lazy!"

123and away. I know I do not know their background, however I have at no point got on my high horse about anything. If they are naughty and disruptive then it needs addressing and sorting quickly as it affects the whole class. If they have SN (I am well aware that behavioural problems are SN btw) then they need to be in the special needs class for the support they need. This has a much higher staff to child ratio.

Not wanting my well behaved 6 year old to be upset and not be able to listen/concerntrate at school is not being on my high horse. It's just a simple thing that I expect to go without saying, clearly not. It's not my fault these children cannot behave, nor is it my job to parent them to teach them how to behave - i have done that with my own child.

But one child not being able to play football well doesn't continuously disrupt the class day after day, all day, does it?

I know i have no idea why these kids are so badly behaved, or why the school are unable to control them. I can only guess and speculate until I speak to their teacher. However I'm guessing she can't discuss them with me, so I may not achieve anything... worth a go though.

Hando, your 6yo will cope just fine if you support her, the same as almost every other child who has a disruptive child in their class. You are being overly precious about it.

As I said my own dd has had exactly the same thing from nursery school all the way through to high school. behaviour including running out of school, throwing chairs across classrooms, running across desks, yelling, hitting, swearing etc etc. It happens, kids deal with it. Early on people were worried about it, some complained, some muttered but the fact is that they were dealt with exactly like every other child in the chool, same rules, same sanctions. Over time it worked, by year 6 they had just about come out of it.

Over the longer term not one of the parents felt their dc had been disadvantaged by the situation, going into high school none of the parents with dc going into the same classes as the "naughty" children asked for them to be switched - which they could have done and they would have been listened to.

Badly behaved children need educating as well as any other, as I said before - possibly more so. Your attitude does you a diservice and may rub off on your dd. If she picks up your attitudes to these children you may actually end up causing her trouble too.

Hando, I think for the first time ever in all my years on MN, your posts have actually genuinely annoyed me.

"These children are behaving this way because either they have a crap home and parents who don't care or because they choose to behave this way"

This is wrong on so many levels I do not know where to begin. I care about my son more than I can begin to verbalise on this page and our home life is not "crap". He cares very much too, but does not "get" many of the things that come easily to your dd. He needs extra support with this.

However, at 5 he had a reading at of 13 and learned to play chess in a day. He can explain gravity and at 6 is currently in bed reading the paper. I bet he can do things that your dd needs help with and the pace of your dd holds him back Put her in the SN class I say so she does not hold my son back.

See, I'm so bothered that punctuation deserted me. I meant to say that children like your dd hold my son back. Hopefully, ds actually knows niether her nor you.

Goosey, I agree with you there, the three children I know (and have known since they were 18mo) sound very similar to the children the op describes. They do not have any SN as such and they most certainly do not have a "difficult" home life. Being friends with their parents means I have seen, over many years, how they are treated. I have also seen their siblings and how different their siblings have turned out. How can you say "oh it is just crap parenting" when you have one child with huge difficulties and another who is almost totally opposite?

Different children are different, parenting is only one factor.

Bloody hell, I wouldn't have you helping out in my class even if you came gift-wrapped with a free bottle of gin Hando.
I have helpers who are thoughtful, discrete, considerate and able to empathise with the fact that other children may not come from such a wonderful background as their own children, or are less able to cope in some areas.
You sound toxic to me,with an agenda that is incompatible with being a parent helper. I wouldn't trust you near children I was responsible for.

Shall we start schools for all the naughty children who cant sit still or chat?

Hang on ... isnt that thing called inclusion nowdays?

They are 6, they are boys. Its not always about being 'naughty'.

Its not always about SN either.

My DS1 is what is called Gifted and Talented (cringe). He is 15 and a fecking boy genius. He couldnt sit still till he was 8. He has been wonderfully parented even if I say so myself.

DS2 doesnt only understands about 30% of what is going on in the classroom. Not his fault, not mine. He is not naughty but I know he talks when he shouldnt and gets up when he shouldnt.

DD was a paragon of virtue and went to a school chocabloc with 'naughty' kids. Didnt hold her back a bit. She did very well and was a kind and understanding girl.

Its not even about background - its about understanding that children have different skills and they should be nurtured and valued.

I am delighted that the op has a child who has "learned to behave" - well done her. Clearly those of us with children who cannot sit in silence are terrible parents who lack her marvellous parenting skills.

Also, I am wondering, if silence is always a virtue per se? Many of the silent children I have encountered are silent because they have nothing to say, no spark, no great excitement about knowledge.

Oh, I am so angry.

How many children to you have, Hando?

I have three. They have all been parented the same, and yet they are all so very very different from one another.

I really don't think you have a clue what you are talking about.

So would you prefer a classroom of perfect children who dont move unless asked to or speak unless spoken to? Like Stepford Children maybe?

I am sorry but you have come across like a twat,with saying these boys have had bad parenting,how do you know what parenting they have? Surely one of the boys fathers asking how his behaviour was makes you see they are concerned with his behaviour?

The little girls in ds's class play house & if any of the boys go near them they hit them with the wooden spoons,i have seen them doing this but havent judged them on having bad parents.

Could you not see this as teaching your dd some tolerance?

Whoooa! I said that children behaving this way (and we are talking extremely badly behaved, swearing, continuous bad behaviour etc, not just not being able to sit still) are either behaving this way because they have SN and need to get the extra support, or they have behaving this way because of a troubled homelife/parents who just don't care (meaning it's near impossible for the school to sort their behaviour out with out parents help) or because they are just behaving badly. This was said to reinforce my point that children who are not behaving badly for the first two reasons are "choosing" to behave this way. Perhaps it's not choosing as such, but for want of a better word I think choosing fits. Choosing meaning that they can behave better if they want to / have an incentive to / know there will be consequences if they do not behave etc. They have a choice to behave and receive rewards. They can make that change and behave better with support and encouragement from school and home.

Goosey I can't work out why you are angry, I wasn't talking about your son. If he has SN then he isn't a naughty child is he! If you read my posts back at no point did i say all naughty children have a crap homelife or that you do not care about your son or that SN children are just naughty. I think you have taken my words the wrong way and have got yourself annoyed about nothing! Also - why on Earth would my dd be in the SN class? She doesn't have SN? SN class is for those children who have SN and do better in a smaller class with the extra support.

"The school have a seperate class for children with SN"

Have they not heard of inclusion? There is such a vast range of SNs out there I don't understand the logic of a separate class at all. It's a bit like having a separate class for all children with blue eyes or who are above a certain height. Very odd.

Again.. READ MY POSTS PROPERLY! I did not say all children who are naughty have a crap home life. I did not say my dd is perfect, she can be naughty and cheeky at home, like all kids. She is lively and chatty and sociable at school too. I do not expect children to be perfect, but I do object to my dd hearing words like slut, bitch and fuck you at school

Celery, where have I said that all children by the same parents are going to behave the same or be the same. I have one child btw.

Some children are reinforced by learning alone, and behave in a way that allows learning to happen- that is their 'reward'.

Some children do not enjoy classroom based learning, and need extrinsic reinforcement in order to behave in a way that allows learning to happen.

OP, you have sat in judgement of these particular children, and have come to some baffling conclusions.

You need to remember that they are six. SIX. You do not need to 'fight' them, they are children. Why are they making you so angry?

Just out of interest, how would you tackle their behaviour if you were their teacher/parent?

My point is that my ds does not have SN, he simply has different needs to your child and they should be supported in the same way as your dd would be if, for example she does not read as well as my ds. The normal classroom environment is meant to support a variety of different children not just those exactly like your dd. They are all "normal".

You assume that all children who do not sit still and quietly either have sn or have been badly parented. Niether is necessarily the case.

I am angry because I find your attitude very narrow minded. However, I do not come to MN to get angry so perhaps I should just back away.

Huge, huge difference between Stepford Children and children that swear, refuse to co operate, and are physical with others.

I do actually sympathise with the op, having had a dd experience chair throwing, violence, swearing and general non co operation in her class.
I do not believe she should have to learn to 'tolerate' those sorts of behaviours. I think she has the right to feel safe in her classroom, and the right to receive her 'fair share' of attention from the teacher.

However I do not place any blame on the children or their parents. If your dd's education is being disrupted as much as you think, the school is clearly nit managing the situation sufficiently.