to think home births are selfish?

[woozlet]

I just watched a 'desperate midwives' that I had recorded and there was a home birth on it which went wrong. It worked out ok in the end and the baby was ok. But I was really scared watching it, it just seemed like an unnecessary risk to take.

Alright, not misleading then, but skewed. Will that do you?

In what way skewed?

YABU Woozlet.

I have had 2 HB and 2 hospital births. All were equally safe as far as I am concerned, well apart from one which was so fast the MW didn't have a chance to get to the house before I'd given birth. But all was well in all the births.

As for the programme you are talking about, I did watch it and I agree with Pinkjenny here, the lady in question didn't say she had any objections to going to hospital once she knew the baby was in distress. She only said she didn't want a hospital birth at previous home visits from the community MW. So I think YABVU trying to make out she was being selfish and thinking only of herself

No, I don't think it is skewed TBH. I agree that hospital and home births are not a level playing field, havign two MW to yourself versus having one or two MW potentially run ragged trying to predict who will actually deliver first out of the three women they are attending...well there is no contest is there?

However, the fact is that they are the choices we have, the statistics linked to that are going to show preference one way (again for low risk pgs), it is not surprising but the fact that it is a one sided situation does not make the stats wrong - the system may be wrong, there is certainly an injustice in the system, however the stats are not wrong (IMO)!

Jem, it's not too scary to imagine what would have happened if you were at home. The baby and you would have been very regularly monitored and assuming no distress from the baby, when s/he wouldn't come out the conventional way you would transfer in.

I pushed for 6hrs at home (with an average sized baby who nobody knew was in deep transverse arrest- would not have been spotted in hospital either) and when she still wasn't coming out I transferred. I have severe PTSD. None of my birth trauma came from the home bit or the transfer. What happened to me in hospital wakes me up in a cold sweat and I can't have more children because of the sheer fear and panic. The hospital caused that, not the attempted homebirth.

op you need to educate yourself what a irresponsible outlandish comment!

Midwives and Women are working v. Hard to raise the profile of homebirths in order to give women and their families the choice of a safe less medicalised alternative to hospital birth where the cascade of intervention frequently occurs and can take the power of birth and belief in their own bodies away from women.

I think the whole cost/resources thing comes down to two issues - firstly the overall amount of money spent - and this certainly needs to be increased. But also the actual number of MWs that a maternity unit can get hold of. The actual constraint in many areas is an absolute shortage of MWs. Of course the recruitment/retention problem might indeed be influenced by the salary they are prepared to pay MWs, particularly in expensive areas, but at the moment it's a shortage of MWs full stop. Thus you can state at one and the same time that 'home births are cheaper' (in terms of overall resources/cutting stays in hosiptal/other interventions by doctors etc) but also state that 'there aren't the resources' ( in terms of MW man or rather woman/hours)

If you had watched a Desperate Midwives programme about my birth with DS1 you might have concluded that I was selfish. DS1 was put at risk by my decision to give birth in hospital just because I was worried that the neighbours might hear if I had a home birth. But it's OK, I was punished for my selfishness by getting permanent nerve damage in my legs and by regularly pooing myself for a few weeks.

Thank gawd I got over my selfishness with DS2 and he was born at home without trauma to baby or neighbours

Oh and can I just recommend that you watch The Business of Being Born.

Although about the American birth system it illustrates exactly why more and more women are choosing home birth and how dangerous/damaging the cascade of intervention can be.

We should not be passive subjects of doctors who give up our choices and voices just to guarantee a safe delivery.

My birth was exactly that. MY birth. It was about dd and me.

I wasn't going to be ordered about and be rushed into artificially accelerating my labour through drips and having a crochet needle shoved up my fanjo just so they could get me out and clear the bed.

I knew my body better than anyone and trusted it to do what needed to be done. It did.

Ok it doesn't happen this way for everyone but there are no guarantees no matter what choices you make.

I'll be doing exactly the same thing again next time.

Oh and in my area it's a designated team of midwives who look after home births so I wasn't stealing anyone away from the bedside of another mother .

Morloth did your DH go to Hypnobirthing classes with you?They totaly changed my DH's ideas about HB.
When I first mentioned HB to him he said "You'll have this baby in hostpital like any other sane woman"

He has eaten his words, many times over.

I have had three hospital births, would love to have a home birth but each time I have been high risk and so hospital was the safest place. For low risk women homebirth is probably fine (things can go wrong but you have to balance that against being more comfortable at home and how quickly you can get to a hospital etc).

The only thing I do thing is ridiculous is women who are clearly high risk who nag and push for a home birth, I know one like this and have seen many on forums. I think homebirth has its place but it IS selfish to push for one if you know that you and your baby may be at risk.

i think the OP posted a knee jerk reaction to one HB seen on telly, which is hardly representative of home births as a whole

a woman who refused to transfer in to hospital when there are genuine medical reasons, or one who won't consnet to intervention in hospital for genuine reasons, could be called selfish , but i don't think that home births per se could ever be called selfish

i think women who opt for homebirths probably do more research and reading and preparation than those who go for hospital birth, which is the default place of delivery.

i imagine those women make informed choice about giving birth at home and would be fully prepared to transfer in should the need arise.

there are plenty of things that can and do go wrong in hospital births and the casade of intervention is well documented and is responsible for the massive rise in c.sections, up to 28 - 30 % in some trusts

more low risk women giving birth at home would impact on the rate of c.s IMO

inmylittle head ''Of course NICE support home births - it's cheaper. And because it's all about choice, if you or the baby dies they can't be sued because you chose it. It's a win-win situation [cynical]''

This is absolute bull! they funding for hospital come from payment by results everytime there is a hopsital birth the trust gets paid they do not get paid for home births! so it is actually more expensive for the hopsital to provide cover for homebirth!

Also of course the hospital can be sued bcause it is a hb doesn't suddenly take accountability away.

Also your comments about Midwives are sweeping and rude! Mws are the experts in normal childbirth and recognising deviations from the norm and then referring appropriatley.

Yes he did Lynette and will totally cave if I insist, I did have DS at a hospital (though was a nice private, "hotelish" type hospital, with one to one midwife care - not available to us here).

I think he is feeling the nerves of being so far from home this time as well.

OK yes she would have gone, it wasn't put to her as a choice, she hadn't even packed a bag or anything though. I just felt that woman was a bit of a twat, she had a bleed but didn't tell them and then changed her mind and said it was just a bit of brown so she could still have her home birth. And at the end of the programme the midwife said she would have been much happier had that been a hospital birth.

And yes I have already said that the title was stupid of me. And yes I do need more education on this, but I'm learning lots from this! It's very interesting.

"I already thought that the stats would not show it to be riskier because it's only low risk births which can be at home. I suppose the more relaxed = less traumatic birth all makes sense."

No that is not the case. like for like births are compared. The compare low risk with low risk.

"the midwife can't be blamed because she doesn't have the medical knowledge of a consultant."

It is a good thing that MWs don't have the same kind of medical knowledge of a consultant. Consultants are used to looking at childbirth from a medical model which can be dangerous and act accordingly hence the higher rate of intervention in consultant led countries like the US. Midwives (used to) be able to see birthing as a normal process and more able to let nature takes it's course.

"Birth can go wrong wherever, but it's just slightly more serious if you have no medical equipment or consultants around."

Many times it is because medical equipment is around that the outcome of what should be a low risk hospital birth ends up 'going wrong'. Instead of human beings (MWs) attending women, some women are hooked up to machines to monitor them and there starting the cascade of intervention. MOre machines have led to less staffing. The best outcomes are achieved when there is one midwife to one woman, irregardless of where they labour. Waht most women need is someone to trust what they are saying is happening to their bodies and listen to them. Not more fecking machines.

After being treated like a sausage in a meat processing plant, there was no way on earth I would ever step inside a labour ward to have a baby. Yes it was all about me. The enduring memory of dd1's birth has been one akin to rape and it sank me into a year long depression. For dd2's birth I refused to go the elective sections route because I saw it as wrong that I would have major abdominal surgery, with its own set of risks, because the first hospital experience fucked up my mind so badly? So I chose a home birth because they did not treat me like a human being the first time so the second time I was going to have a midwife all to my self. Like every woman deserves. Their staffing issues are their business, not mine. They had ample warning of a home birth so they'd have to find the staffing.

As things would have it my baby arrived at home before the midwives did and i freely admit that I am glad they were not there for her birth. What a screwed up mind I had. I didn't even want them to touch my baby to check she only had one head and 10 fingers and toes. I had thoroughly lost all faith after being lied to and having needless obstructions put in my way.

theyoungvisitor ''IMLH - there is a higher level of training and experience needed to attend a homebirth.

I can't remember what it is precisely, but I think it's something like 5 years minimum practicing, before you can attend homebirths. I believe you also need to be trained in resus and other techniques that hospital MW wouldn't need to know.

But I'm not an expert - so perhaps Lulu or Marsy can say for sure, I am not 100% certain.''

this is also totally incorrect! If you are a qualified midwife then you are a qualified midwife able to attend women in childbirth wherever they give birth!
Also wow I'm astounded that you think in mws training they do not learn resus and obstetric emergency techniques this is an integral part of the job and is taught extensively as a student Midwife and every year once qualified!

carriedababi - jeez that's harsh. I've said I am sorry for shitty title and reacting to 1 situation, and that I was willing to change my viewpoint with more info.

lol lol. neither had I packed a hospital bag. it was a totally Freudian thing in my case.

so what if you don't pack a hospital bag though and you end up being transferred. Surely your dh can bring along some big knickers, pads and a top and trousers later on. And it isn't like they'll leave your baby naked either. Shops are open 24/7 these days.

I agree, woozlet.

me23 - yes sorry Daisy had already pointed my mistake out.

My MW did specifically say that they had to have a minimum number of years of experience and training to do HBs, but perhaps this was just the policy of the hospital she worked for.

carris VERY rude message has been deleted

FFS cant an OP express a fair opinion without getting completely flamed?

Not everyone sees hospital birth as an evil FFS

I get that its an important topic but if anyone has the temerity to suggest otherwise...

UGH

i don't understand people who are against medicalised births.

100 years ago 1 in 3 women used to DIE in childbirth. it's thanks to MEDICINE that we're so much better off now.

give me hospital any day. give me an obstetrician any day.

but your choice of course.

"FFS cant an OP express a fair opinion without getting completely flamed?"

She didn't just express an opinion though, did she? She called all women who choose a HB selfish.

As I said before, how would you feel if there was a thread entitled "I think women who choose a hospital birth are ignorant"?

I think that's why people responded crossly. A reasoned debate about homebirth is one thing, insulting everyone who chooses one is a bit different, and I think the OP has admitted her title was poorly chosen.

But I didn't see carri's message so concede it may have been out of order.