to think home births are selfish?

[woozlet]

I just watched a 'desperate midwives' that I had recorded and there was a home birth on it which went wrong. It worked out ok in the end and the baby was ok. But I was really scared watching it, it just seemed like an unnecessary risk to take.

What sabire said. Lovechoc, 3rd degree tears suck (the only consolation is that it's not a 4th degree - small consolation, really) but when you can see the reasons why you tore (i.e. for me, being able to be more in control of how I birthed) and you can see that those causes were preventable, that sucks even more. I don't know why you tore, both of us had different birth experiences, but to say home births are unsafe or that labouring upright necessarily leads to more perineal damage, is simply untrue.

Morloth - it's a huge thread but I will try! Actually my ideal would be to fly across to Ina May Gaskin's The Farm and give birth there, but I don't think that's an option...

Oh, and lovechoc, the whole point about gravity in childbirth is that allowing gravity to do its thing is what "takes the strain" from the mother's body. Not entirely, of course, but it certainly assists, and our perineal muscles can become fully engaged when we're not sitting on a chair/ bed. Think of the difference between shatting when you're sitting on a loo or when you're squatting - ever used a squat latrine? Amazing for bowel maintenance. It creates a far more 'natural' position for the body and therefore is more supportive of the body than our Western toilets.

Again, you'd need to think through the stages of your birthing that led you to tear. And I hope you've fully healed!

"That you are likely to be transferred in labour in order to pre-empt problems because the midwives are aware this is your first baby. It is not likely they would allow you to get to a stage where you would need to be transferred on a blue light."

Why is transfer such a problem, if it's for failure to progress or because of the mother wanting an epidural? I'm a homebirth support bod in my local area and I talk to loads of mums who want/have had homebirths, and I can tell you that I have never met anyone who transferred who didn't say afterwards 'even though I transferred, I'm so glad I started off at home. The experience would have been much worse if I'd been in hospital earlier'. I have transferred in from a homebirth myself, and was fine about it.

In other words - even women who transfer from a homebirth are generally still very glad they booked one, even when it ends in transfer!

"Please read my posts before you comment. I haven't said first-time mums/babies have worse outcomes after homebirths. I said a homebirth for a first baby is higher risk as your pelvis is untested"

But if the outcomes for first time mums birthing at home are no worse than for first time mums giving birth in hospital, then I think you'd have to conclude that having an 'untested pelvis' is not really a material risk is it?

Athena - nobody is arguing that people are 'wrong' to have planned c-sections or hospital births, only that the evidence doesn't support the view that they are safer for low risk mums!

"Sabire - do you have an opinion about anything - that ISN'T evidence based???!!!"

Errr - yes. Lots of things! But when I'm spouting off about things I don't know much about, I do my best not to try to pass off my hunches and prejudices as uncontested fact. Except with my children of course, as they don't know any better!

Sabire: "But if the outcomes for first time mums birthing at home are no worse than for first time mums giving birth in hospital, then I think you'd have to conclude that having an 'untested pelvis' is not really a material risk is it?" - quite so. Beautifully put.

"Except with my children of course, as they don't know any better!" - ohhhh, they will, you just wait and see. Their time will come.

Athene I think you may be reading posts selectively, I had a HB and my posts say each to their own.

Yes, Peachy, I am probably guilty of not having ready every single post. It was a big generalisation. Sorry.

actually I think most homebirthers are saying each to their own - the point of this thread was saying that it's NOT each to their own, and asserting that homebirth is necessarily selfish.

It would be nice if many people on this thread could respect the idea of "each to their own". I don't think homebirthers are any more guilty of this than any other group on this thread - less so in fact since the point of the thread was to criticise their choice and no-one else's.

I am utterly happy for any woman to give birth in hospital, out of hospital, via c-section, with homeopathic candles up her fanjo - whatever she feels will float her boat.

But I will defend my decision to have a homebirth as being sensible, carefully thought through, evidence-based and right for both me and my baby.

"homeopathic candles up her fanjo"

OUCHIE !!!

Well, that's one way to chase the beggar out.

Would the baby be flame-haired?

Is that like ear candling? Some ancient practice that has passed me by?

why yes, the ancient practice of fanjo-candling. Haven't you heard of it?

It's not available on the NHS but I think you'll find it very invigorating if you try it, and it has the added advantage of making it easier to see when the baby is crowning.

It can also be used outside of childbirth for giving an added spark and heat to your love life.

TYV have you not considered doing an Ina May Gaskin and using it to enhance your love life whilst in childbirth?

TYV, don't give them any more ammo to stereotype sneer at us home birthers with. they already have enough with whale music.

Oh yes Peachy, Bring It On

foxy - can I borrow your whale music cd if you've finished with it? And the ant marching one as well - calms my nerves.

the ant marching one is over rated. whale song it the real deal.

For anyone interested in home birth try this website: www.homebirth.org.uk

It's full of useful research and practical advice.

Happy Birthing! x

Could cause a traffic jam though Peachy, wouldn't know if you were coming or going...

yes the tear has healed fine, but that's just luck. it could have been alot worse!yes I agree, a 4th degree tear would have been hellish.

I still think more should be publicised about tearing during labour - it happens and it should be discussed at the booking in appointment or at any point before going into labour. Better to be well-informed than not at all.

Sorry bit of digression there...

lovechoc - I agree about raising the profile of tearing, it's like miscarriages - that sort of thing needs to be 'normalised' more in the public sphere.

Glad you're well healed. Took me ages plus a further op - but that was due to bad advice from my midwives .

mrsmerryhenry sorry I forgot to ask, how is your's healing? I could have kicked the MW that tried to catheterise me after the tear and she was going around saying 'it's just a second degree tear, will you just let me catheterise you, it won't take long'. No get that thing away from me, do you realise how nippy that is, and in how much pain I'm in! I insisted that I'd had a third degree, but oh no, not even the SISTER believed what I was saying, so they had to get medical advice and guess what he said, yep - third degree tear. At last someone listened to me, half an hour later. Honestly, where's the compassion these days, does no one care these days...??

duh, sorry, hadn't read the post properly glad your are all healed up fine now. we are the lucky ones it seems, as I've heard worse cases than this. I'm just grateful to not have to rely on a lifetime's supply of Tena. At 27 the stigma would be so awful...