to think many parents who send their children to the lower quality independent schools are so pretentious it is cringeworthy?

[Barrelofloves]

Is it due to insecurity? Because I have found the seriously loaded/titled folk are not like that at all.

I think we have established that Xenia believes sending your dcs to state school is moral equivilant of leaving a baby alone with a rottweiller and a bag of crystal meth.. Its just child abuse.

However most sane folk know that state schools provide a reasonable education for most, a shitty education for some and an excellent education for many.

It will not automatically make you unemployable, dirty, smelly and fick. or speak with the wrong accent.

As with any society, there is a super-slim layer of uber-priviliged at the top, whose concerns are naturally staying there and keeping tight hold of the silly money jobs. This layer is what Xenia has aspired to, and achieved according to her.

But society is a good deal larger and more complex, and a good deal more vibrant than that tiny portion of it, however safe it is. Innovation, excitement, artistic achievement, challenges to bad practice status quos, these are the things that make society a living thing.

Xenia's passionate emotional investment in the moral rectitude of class and privilege cannot be changed. Just don't try and dress it up as some kind of moral high ground.

Most decent, hardworking people who believe fervently in the value of a good education do not earn enough to send their children to private school. That's an economic fact. Writing off the backbone of our society because wages they don't earn enough to pay for private school is blinkered and destructive to society as a whole.

I know this doesn't matter to Xenia, as she has quite cheerfully admitted she doesn't give a toss about anybody else but herself and her children, but it matters to most of us, and it matters to those of us who can see a little bit beyond the privet hedges and private school lakes created to keep the rest of the world at bay.

Compassion, empathy, enlightenment, intellectual curiosity and humility. These are the kind of qualities that make a successful human being. Its sad but not surprising to see how little they seem to feature in X's life.

pagwatch, I wonder whether you are aware of the implication in your last post that high status high income careers are 'dull and soulless' and not exciting and challenging. Perhaps you should ask yourself why you see that as so?

Many jobs pay very well and carry prestige and are also extremely interesting and stimulating. I can only hope my dcs find something they like to do which also brings them so much income. The 2 are hardly mutually exclusive.

"as long as people send their children to private schools, state schools will suffer"

Don't agree with this. If private schools were stopped, those kids would go to the better state schools which may or may not benefit from their presence and the poorer state schools would be no better off.

Vouchers would widen access to independants more than to just those who could afford the top-up, as the existing scholarship and bursary fund money would be able to cover many more people. I imagine that at many independant schools bursaries could be available to all according to income level so that anybody could afford it should such a scheme be introduced.

I'm fairly sure it wouldn't solve the existing inequalities though. I have a feeling the result may be that many independants would just become even more academically selective (as a greater number of people applied) so effectively we would just have increased the number of grammar schools by the back door.

Although I accept what you are both saying about parential aspirations being a factor, I clearly remember the school's aspirations being equally as demanding. Still that was a long time ago, it was just my personal experience as a 1970's school girl. Things have clearly moved on.

Interesting you should talk about growing BuckR. I volunteer at my son's state primary to help the children with their own on-site organic "farm". We have had the farm for four years now and grow fruit, vegetables and flowers. We also raise chickens. What we grow is eaten in school.

This school is not in an affluent, middle class area. People do not buy houses nearby to get their kids in to this school and yet it is a wonderfully, happy and nurturing environment. This is largely down to the fact that many parents contribute their time and skills to provide an enhanced experience for ALL of the kids.

Snorkie - what would happen with vouchers, I think, is that a whole new tier of private schools, most likely run by private business, would spring up. Their fees would magically match the voucher value. I don't think this would necessarily create a good situation.

Snorkle - I agree with you - it is an old chestnut that if indies were abolished the quality of state schools would imporve because of th influx of the better quality parents and pupils. This view is constantly rammed down out throats by a neighbour with a child at a state school, and who is a governor of that school and so the type of pushy middle-class parent that supposedly would benefit state secondaries, but who intensively coaching her child for indie exams - usual hypocritical reason of course - the child is, natch, 'bright'. So even those who evangelise about it seem loath to put the theory into practice when they get the chance.

blueshoes
that was not the intended implication.
Actually I think you have to want to see that implication

I did not imply that high income high status jobs were always dull. I suggested that if the sole ambition is high income, high status then the strong possibility exists that you are doing the job for the money and not because you find it in any way rewarding.

Of course the ultimate ambition is to do soemthing you love andthen be very well paid for it.

I had a high status high income job and loved it. But I signed up for the job because I loved it and success in that enviroment brought the other things.
But I think when a group of 15 year old boys are taken to a careers evening and have before them all the options to investigate from film production, research scientist, child psycologist, advertising consultant and the longest queue is at the desks with the accountant and the actuaries then the liklihood that the parents boys are choosing it for the laughs and the thrills is pretty low.

I used to hang out with a lot of acctuaries. Those guys used to know how to party. Sometimes wew would get together to do death rates amongst Beetles drivers just for the kicks.

It would cost a huge amount to start a school from scratch though, so I'm not sure that would be too much of a problem unless the vouchers were very generous (which seems unlikely).

Actually, I think probably a lot of schools haven't moved on. Many schools in both sectors are still ridiculously pushy. I just wouldn't should such a school for my children.

Oh and I am well aware of how there are many schools such as yours which are innovative and stimulating. Ironically, these are usually found in areas such as you describe and not in crazy, tiny affluent catchments such as ours which, although outstanding on paper, is very narrow and overly academic.

I would have seriously considered a school such as yours. As I said earlier, we make our decisions based on what is available to us. That is not always as clear cut as using the outstanding state school around the corner.

choose not should.

Accio, there is a whole new generation of schools like that. They are trimmed off all the gubbins like playing fields and boaters and are essentially entrance exams sausage factories. there are several in London. I think Chris Woodhead set up a company with venture capital backing to provide just this service.

I looked at one for ds, but as the brochure was so badly punctuated I declined to visit.

And MrsG, it is not an old chesnut inasmuch it is measurable and found to be true. The fact that your pushy neighbour is trying for an alternative is presumably because it is there, and she want's her dcs to have the best chance.

If all schools were state then that would not be an option. We would then necessarily see a rise in standards based on existing data showing the involvement of parents increased the a schools success. I don't know why so parent private parents think this is not true.

Lol, Pagwatch @ actuaries! So true in my experience. I used to share a house with a couple of actuaries. In all seriousness I remember a conversation relating to working out whether statistically those sitting on the left of the office were more or less likely to die before pensionable age.

madame defarge - your last post was fantastic - sensible, succint and put the whole debate into a nutshell.

But, MD, what about the other things? The things I am actually paying for? A state school will never give me that. I live in one of the most affluent areas of the country where pretty much every parent at our local schools is interested and involved. It still doesn't give me what I want.

Hm, I suppose it depends on what you want. I want smaller class sizes, space for a very reserved little boy to come out of his shell and start having confidence in himself.

Bu those are my motives for private school. And there is nothing wrong with wanting your child do excel academically (if they are suited to that) and not even that much wrong wanting your dcs to mix with people you approve of (its a fact of life).

Will these new schools offer the facilities I am looking for?
-Classes of 20 or less
-Large outdoor Foundation stage playground with extensive climbing frame and woodland
-A short walk across the playground to swimming once a week
-A wealth of sports and sporting equipment taught by qualified PE specialists.
-Proper (and I mean proper) music tuition with enough instruments for every child in the class for each lessons.
-A computer suite with enough computers for every child-not paired.
-Very regular visitors such as artists, authors, councillors etc. By regular I mean a couple each half term.
-Stunning, amazing history teaching which included an area of school transformed into the topic. A box with smells, visiting theatre group and enough good quality artefacts to really bring the topics alive.

I could go on and on and on.

MadameDefarge, how is it measured & found to be true? As I see it few private school parents live in the catchment of failing schools to start with. Those that do would move house to be in a better catchment because they can afford to and they evidently care enough about education to do it, ergo only the best state schools would benefit from the influx and as they are already doing very well they quite probably wouldn't improve by much.

I am speaking a bit from experience here - we would have moved if we hadn't sent the children to private school. There are some excellent comps near us that are as good academically (by some metrics) as the private school they attend. We seriously considered moving anyway.

Oh my goodness - sounds like some people have sour grapes about the fact that some people have worked hard, done well in life financially and as a result can afford to "choose" which school that they send their children to!.....

Obviously the OP has no concept of social mobility and believes that unless you are born into nobility then you shouldn't aspire to better yourself through education and learning....heaven forbid that the lower and middle classes may eventually rise above their stations through hard work and recognising that a good education can help to build the cornerstones of success by promoting self confidence, good manners, drive and a desire to fulfill potential!!!

My father was the first in his family to win a place at a grammer school and get into oxbridge.....does this mean that when he decided to send my brother and I to (probably what were in your opinion "2nd class" independent schools) he was purely trying to compensate for the "breeding" that he never had (and aiming to produce 2 braying half wits in straw boaters!!)

Sounds like OP has a chip on her shoulder as she hasn't been quite so successful in life as these "oiks".....

Well Buck, apart from the class of 20, and the one to one music tuition (which I pay for extra at his private school anyway) my ds' state school provided all those things.

P.S. I'm not having a go at those parents who send their children to state schools as many are very good, and bright children will always do well if parents are motivated and supportive.....I just take offense at the OPs original implication that if people CHOOSE to sent their children to an independent school (that's not eton, harrow etc) then they are in some ways trying to "get above their station" for all the wrong reasons....I find that attitude classist and frankly quite insulting to about 99 percent of the british population.

One of the very well regarded comps near us that does fantastically well at A level (>60% A grades in maths and science subjects) still only get about 10% A*/A in the same subjects at GCSE level as it is non selective. If your 'bright' child is happy to be part of the 10% and all that goes along with it (I'm thinking about the 'geek' factor) then that's OK, but what if they are not? This is when the private school/grammar school experience comes into it's own, I think.

here is a piece from America

Harvard Education Review

These are the two papers I can find a the moment.

Snorkie - Why would it be very expensive to start a school from scratch? If there is a profit will there is a way.

Please correct me if I am wrong, but when the voucher system was introduced in Sweden it gave birth to a whole new tier of private schools owned by entrepreneurs/the private sector. Prior to this Sweden had no private schools -I think?

And oneofkind, thank you.

The argument that if we all went state, then the schools would improve does worry me and certainly when our local headmistress asked me to volunteer at her school I cheerfully agreed ( though I admit to a few sherberts at the time).

I'm involved now at a much more grass roots level than if my own hcildren attended and I can see that the problems cannot be solved by a handful of pushy middle class parents and their children ( and it would be a hnadful due to catchment).

I also wonder if those advocating that private school parents should be more social minded would extend that to home schoolers. Now they really are involved in their DCs education. Are they letting the system down too?