to think many parents who send their children to the lower quality independent schools are so pretentious it is cringeworthy?

[Barrelofloves]

Is it due to insecurity? Because I have found the seriously loaded/titled folk are not like that at all.

Yes MadameD - Chris Woodhead is Chairman of Cognita a company which owns a number of private schools in the Uk and abroad.

Litchick - someone said further up the thread that once the figure reaches 30% (of involved MC parents) then a difference can be made. A school like yours is doomed forever I guess.

Thanks for the links MD - I will go & read...

APG, you may well be right, I'm not at all familiar with Sweden (will have to look that up too), but gut feeling tells me that infrastructure: land to site the school (including sufficient play area), buildings, IT labs & equipment, science labs & equipment, etc etc, would cost a huge amount to set up from scratch & so it would take a long time to recoup those outlays. Of course if you could find an old school (or other easily converted building) for sale at a reasonable price..

As you say, if there's a sniff of a profit then it will happen. I agree with you that such schools are unlikely to be a good thing!

LitChick. For me, this is about equality of opportunity. It's about those with money being able to buy advantage for their kids and the fairness of that, it's about government failures, it's about a lack of concern for other human beings and their welfare. Home education, for me, is not part of that problem.

Just my opinion.

I think in all of this discussion it has to be accepted that not all children are equal in intelligence. Not all should go to university, but all should receive the same opportunities, not just the chosen few, be they at a private school or a comprehensive in the leafy suburbs populated by only those children whose parents can afford the houses in the catchment area.

It all comes down to money buying a good education, which is fine if you have the money but not so good if you haven't.

How one reacts on this thread I think comes down to whether one actually is interested in the plight of the have nots. One poster in particular is patently not interested or concerned at all.

I don't really see why, if one's own child isn't deprived and is at a decent school either private or state, then there can be no empathy for those in different circumstances.

OK MD, I'm not disputing that a higher middle class intake will raise a school's fortunes. What I'm disputing is that abolishing private schools will significantly raise the middle class percentage at the schools that need it. The vast majority of those children will end up at the schools that already have a high proportion of middle class children.

snorkie, in most circumstances new build is easier than conversion. From a building perspective. Here in Hackney we have had a programme of new build academies which seem to be doing very well indeed, relatively speaking. We have superb new buildings,designed by leading architects such as Richard Rogers, all the shiny hair and good quality fabric uniforms that X could desire. Inspirational and motivated staff and teachers....so it is going on.

Oh yes, and these are part funded by private enterprise too. Because unlike Xenia, many private enterprises such as UBS and others actually benefit from investing in state schools, they recognise that the "i'm all right jack" approach to education is a societal threat and needs to be addressed. They also have a rather more highly developed notion of social responsibility and social entrepreneurship.

Enlightened self-interest would sort of sum it up.

Snookie, yes, a small increase in middle-class ghetto schools. But...if the private schools had been abolished, then I see no reason not to throw out the vexed notion of parental choice. Certainly in most parts of London that would create an immediate social mix.

Some areas are so deprived socio-economically that the chance of finding a stray middle class parent is virtually non-existent. These areas and schools need special attention.

I don't know if any of you are aware of the situation in Northern Ireland. There are many fantastic state grammar schools with over 40% of children accessing a grammar school education. Concern for the other 60% has led to complete chaos in the school system. Academic selection has supposedly been abolished (recommended against by the education minister) and 3 different 11 plus transfer tests have sprung up. The situation is a complete nightmare for those parents and children involved.

Have a look on the Belfast Telegraph website if you are interested.

it might create an immediate social mix if implemented overnight, but given time, people would move to the leafy suberbs/desireable catchments (actually it wouldn't need much time at all, most people could rent a house in the catchment of their choice with the savings in school fees your scheme would give them). Unless you are going to ban moving house too?

thedolly. That reminds me of something which is very pertinent here.

I was born in Belfast, but we moved to the UK when I was four. Why was that? Because my sister had failed the 11+ and our mother, who was a teacher, knew what a catastrophe that was given the shite secondary modern provision there then.

Of course the joke is, my darling sis went on to a prestigious uni, was made a board director at 28, and is now a director of one of our most prestigious cultural institutions.

So much for the 11+ eh?

ooh, now there is a cunning plan, snorkie!

jaja's - I know that Huddersfield Grammar School near me is owned by Cognita. This has been around for years so must have been taken over by Cognita at some point. See if Cognita has a website.

The one I looked had a rather critical ofsted report, and a bit of googling dug up some unhappy parents. but that was a while ago.

But its ethos was work work and more work. And conforming. and more conforming. And no playground.

But the brochure was a shocker. Someone had decided that compound adjectives do not need hyphens. so it was all " first class teaching with top notch resources" et etc.

they have taken over some older schools I think. I don't know if they do any new builds.

They are a new breed of utilitarian schools, designed to do one job and one job alone. They don't play into any notions of Britain's great playing field and the upper crust, there is little sense of any kind of social climbing. Its precisely the kind of school that modest folk who want a good education for their kids without the public school nonsense like. Shame that in london at least they cost the same as the prestigious indies.

Well, MadameDefarge, I've been teaching for nearly 20yrs in various primary schools up and down the country. I have taught in 7 counties in both affluent and deprived areas and I have never come across any primary school offering what my kids get at their indie school. The pool, the 80 acres, the music resources, the cricket pitch, the netball courts, the theatre etc. Sure, some have bits and pieces of that but the complete package? Your DS's primary school must be a one off.

er, buck, you did not mention 80 acres or school pool, then netball courts...the bespoke theatre.

At his old state school my ds walked across a lovely park to the sparkly new leisure centre with an amazing training pool whose floor rose up and down.

the more than adequate junior playground had markings for football, basketball, netball and tennis (and probably other games). My ds had tennis lessons by trained professionals. The infants playground had amazing sculptures and climbing things, plus wooded areas and flower beds, oh yes, and the nursery had a huge outdoor area liberally sprinkled with lovely things.

As for the bespoke theatre, I fail to see why a good school hall with a stage is not perfectly adequate, or hiring another venue for gilitzy end of year productions if thats what you want.

And in fact my ds' private school has absolutely none of these things. But it has what I wanted. Great teaching and outstanding personal development of the kids.

I'm afraid the whole playing field guff is not what matters to me. If as a teacher you think the whole sparkly facilities things is what matters, rather than inspired and committed teachers, well we are not going to agree.

MadameDefarge - have to say I am with you there.

DSs senior school has 100 odd acres, boat house, bespoke theatre, dance studios, arts centre, cricket academy, blah blah blah etc but frankly I would swap quite a few acres for some slghtly more sparkly teachers. Some of them are a bit complacent and comfortable for my liking.

ABD, you mention a boathouse, is there, perchance, a um, lake?

ah, buck I see you did mention the pool and 80 acres....but still.

No lake but we have got miles of river.

Eton rowing lake may be where the Olympic rowing event is being held but only real men row on rivers.

You can have a school with sparkly teachers, bespoke theatre, acres of grounds, great sports and music facilities and it can be a state school - I teach in one. We don't have a swimming pool though, we got rid of that a few years ago.

While of course good teachers are paramount an attractive surrounding lifts the soul

Aha! better invite buckR round for tea, otherwise she won't believe you!

Hm. Not sure if a river (however macho) gets you round to Xenia's for tea! Gotta be a lake.