to think many parents who send their children to the lower quality independent schools are so pretentious it is cringeworthy?

[Barrelofloves]

Is it due to insecurity? Because I have found the seriously loaded/titled folk are not like that at all.

X posts, abetadad but we're saying pretty much the same thing re good state vs poor state.

at Lizzylou

but this is what always happens on these threads. Because xenia posts extensively and with a huge lack of awareness or empathy it starts to look as if she is representing private school parents when she really really really isn't.

My DS and DD have attended several schools in the private sector between them.
The type of pompous, smug, people filled with entitlement are very very very few. TBH you almost have to chose into that enviroment.
When you chose any school you visit and talk to the teachers and pupils.
If I attended a school for my child and it was filled with arrogance and assumed superiority then I simply wouldn't let my child go there.
Like gets drawn to like.
My sons school is filled with interesting, polite, considerate young men. Their attitude to my DS2 is considerate and interested. They mix with local schools from state and private sector and they are not anything like the preposterous creatures you would expect if you went bythe nonsense on here.
DDs best friend is in a local state schooland the two of them are very similar.
These differences between the tow groups of both parents and children are being exaggerated as Xenia gets more ridiculous and the two sides get drawn further apart.

The sad thing is that Xenia does make interesting comments at times but her nonsense is just drowning everything else out....

BuckRogers - I might also add that people who send their DCs to fantastic highly selective state schools after having them coached intensively by a private tutor and then feel all smug and self righteous about people who send their DCss to a private school just annoy me.

I am not pointing that comment at any one on the thread. However, there are a few Labour politicians and various 'right on' media types who do say that kind of thing on TV and in newspapers that make my teeth grate to the point I just want to scream:

"You and now your kids did not go to an ordinary Comprehensive you jumped little squirt, you and now your kids went to highly selective state schools because of your nice well off middle class upbringing along with Mummy's and Daddy's contacts provide ready access to that privellege."

Finally, a somewhat honest and half way sensible post from Xenia!
Abetadad- I understand and can agree with most of what you have written. The point I would have to disagree on is about private schools providing their students with a desire to do well/ drive/ moral fibre, or whatever term you choose to use. I appreciate that this has been your experience of private school but I am not convinced that one can generalise. I also attended a private school from 11-18 (an independent day school with good academic results). I do not think that it was my schooling that gave me confidence, drive, etc. I think the greatest influence on the child remains the parents. My parents had a high expectation of all their children and supported us to the very best of their ability. (They were a category 3 on LeQueen's list). They certainly helped to give us all drive, etc. I have had a lot of other influences too but they have probably been the most important.
I do find that some people, more so those who have attended public boarding schools, have a sort of veneer of confidence but that there is not always as much real confidence or substance underneath the surface. This is not directed at anyone nor meant to insult. I just feel that sometimes this 'confidence' is learnt behaviour rather than true confidence.
LizzyLou- sweeping generalisations about state school parents are ridiculous and insulting but have only really been made by one poster. I really can't take these remarks seriously as they just come across as unintelligent and appear to be made by someone with very little understanding of society in general

I couldn't agree more, pagwatch.

I do not actually know anyone personally who holds views similar to xenia. Of course some of the parents at our schools are a little snobby. Likewise, I know lots of parents with children at state school who are equally as snobby. Being a snob isn't, by any means, the preserve of those who use private schools. However, Xenia's views are extreme and in no way representative of the overwhelming majority of parents who use the private sector.

loobylu3 - yes parents have a huge influence too of course. I hope we do that with our children. My parents though were poorly educated, at bad secondary modern schools, both left school at 15 and often truanted before that. They sent me to a private scool only because my old primary school Head suggested it and chided them until they agreed. I got no encouragement other than that from my parents. Indeed, they suggested I leave my private school at 16 because they could not see any point in 'A' levels. Thank goodness my teachers persuaded them otherwise and they took that advice.

Perhaps I don't mean confidence. Perhaps I mean 'not self limiting'. Not an overarching confidence that says 'I can do anything or be anything' which I agree can be a learned veneer but the confidence to say 'I will give it a try'.

Excellent post, Pagwatch (I did it again, didn't I?).

The irony is that we are considering Private school as an option for our DS's, (we are fortunate in having fabulous State Primaries nearby) so I do know that the vast majority of parents/pupils simply do not think like this.

So many people do not have this choice, nor do they have good state schools nearby. To imply that their Children should be written off is so very very wrong and insulting.

Education vouchers ah yes - the capitalist solution. Milton Friedman was a big fan of applying free market principles to education and I do belive the COnservaties are looking into this again even after the sainted Margaret Thatcher vetoed it way back in the day for being impractical.

Are you thinking the Swedish model would work here? I seriously doubt private schools would give up their right to the academic selection of pupils. I also doubt that the government would provide all parents with vouchers to the full amount of the fee for the private school of their choice. Parents would have to "top up" ergo parents who can't top up can't participate.

I am not suggesting that middle class parents are forced to send their children to state schools, I am suggesting that middle class parents might consider a more utilitarian approach ie what can I do to achieve the greatest good for the greatest number. To me this would mean supporting the state sector by sending my child to a comprehensive school and making it my business to be as involved as I possibly can in improving the performance of that school for all the kids there. In my view that would teach my child a great deal more about courage and moral fibre than simply bunging them in a private school and hoping that just by being there they will acquire such characteristics.

As I think loobylou has already said, there is a lot of parping on this thread about the personal qualities that public/private schools can instill in children and not much about focus on the vital role that parents play in this regard.

Firstly, I don't 'bung' my kids anywhere. Just because my kids are in the private sector does not mean I abdicate my parental responsibility. FWIW, I believe whatever the school setting, parental influence is the greatest influence.

Also, I don't pay to avoid anyone or anything. I pay for the small class sizes and the amazing grounds and facilities. Something that the state could never hope to provide even if private schools were abolished. Therefore, if I and others like me withdrew my children and sent them to the local state school they would be missing out on the real things that I believe I am paying for.

Actually, Lequeen, the change at 14 for non-academic pupils is very much on the cards and has actually started in some schools. Whether it is truly rolled out will very much depend on who wins the election I believe.

We'd all like vouchers I'm sure as long as we can top them up.

I really cannot understand a view point which says read to your chidlren, love them, feed them good food, cuddle them, talk to them, tell them things about history and the world, educate them (in the way most middle class do a huge amount at home) and that's fine - giving them all those hundreds of advantages denied so many other children but don't pay for a private school. By all means pay for tutors. By all means buy a massive house in a leafy suburb but the one thing you must do for the good of the nation is not pay for private school fees. It's just not a logical argument.

There are plenty of poorer parents who if they got a £5k a year voucher could suddenly enter the private system for the first time. Middle England would be cook a hoop and plenty of basic private schools would set up with lower fees, I'm sure.

The greatest good for the greatest number says take a poor child into your home and read it a bed time story so that not only your child has one but they do too - that's as logical and utilitarian as the private school thread but no one suggests that as an option. I think our duties are to care for our own children, help them earn enough to pay a lot of taxes so they can support the deserving poor.

"a sort of can do confidence and desire to make the most of themselves." Yes, that's what I like and the heightening of expectations. The better clothes etc is just a joke of mine in most cases and the accent at Habs/NLCS is not at all good - my children have to come home to learn how to speak properly (and to the lady married to a Scot accent does matter a bit - it's certainly not definitive but if I pick up the phone to a potential boyfriend and he has a thick South African or Scouse accent I just don't find that attractive but that's a different issue - sexual attractiveness rather than ability to generate work amongst the type of people with whom you work in particular business sectors - you used to find it hard to get on in the BBC a few years ago if you DIDN't have a regional action so things come and go but generally reasonably unaccented English helps).

I am not a banker and I don't earn £1m a year although I wouldn't mind earning £1m a year and may be when the children need less attention I will have free rein to increase my earnings. I do think 50s can be a golden age for working women as you're free of most of your caring responsibilities and interesting things happen hormonally which tend to make you even more successful. Things just get better and better.

I withdraw the "bunging" thing. That's me transferring my personal experience onto others and I apologise. I was "bunged" into a public school and it did have small classes, beautiful grounds and exceptional facilities but it was the most miserable time of my life.

You see I will never understand why those in the Home Counties believe themselves to be accent free. It just isn't so.
DH's accent is certainly clear. But he is well educated and well spoken. Not everyone from Glasgow sounds like Rab C Nesbitt nor do all Mancunians sound like Liam Gallagher.

I'm the first to suck my teeth at badly spoken English but I also love the fact that our country offers such a rich tapestry of accents.

Everyone's forgotten the original point of the thread which was about low-quality schools not private schools in general

Having attended two very high-ranking private schools I've been well aware of contemporaries in later life at Oxbridge and in my desirable and high-earning career of contemporaries who have a) lovely shiny hair b) good manners and a can-do-ethos c)got firsts and now we are in our early 40s are earning literally millions as CEOs. Fifty per cent went to high-quality private schools and 50 per cent went to state schools. What they all have in common is loving, supportive family backgrounds and determined characters.

APG, personal experience is such a huge factor in the decisions we make for our children.
As I said earlier, my experience of being a bright kid at a state comp was that we were pushed into applying for a very narrow list of degree subjects such as law. I think you still find that today. (I teach) Whereas at my children's school, it all about choosing what you'd like to learn not what will lead to the most stable career.

I will say that personally, I could never allow my children to board. I find the evening wind down, the eating together and the lazy weekends vital for a happy, healthy childhood.

I think the original point of the thread was to mock the pretensions of certain sections of society. I don't think the OP was too bothered about the inequalities of the education system.

Xenia - "The greatest good for the greatest number says take a poor child into your home and read it a bed time story so that not only your child has one but they do too - that's as logical and utilitarian as the private school thread but no one suggests that as an option. "

Isn't there an argument that by sending your child to state school, that's exactly what you would be doing.

Biggest indicatotr of schools success = number of involved parents.
Therefore, more involved parents at state schools = better education for everyone.

I think the thread though, is about sending your child to a shit independant school instead of a good state school due to a perceived social cachet for the parents.

abetadad- I understand that your private school was very influential for you in terms of your own attitudes to your work, education and life. I would still maintain that the family background and personal qualities not bestowed by a private school education are more important for most people. I totally agree with what MrsShackleton has written and this is my personal experience too, (although I am a mere medical professional, not a CEO earning large sums of money)

BuckRogers - is it a progressive school then, that your children attend? My own experiences suggests that public schools are aggressively academically focussed, that one is required to achieve exceptional results and move on to a high status, high income career.

Well It doesn't advertise as being progressive and it does get outstanding academic results but a child will predicted A-levels of 4As is just as encouraged to study drama or textiles as medicine or law. They are very much into learning for learning's sake and the whole ethos is about the experience which is what I loved about the place when we visited.

In the junior department where my elder two are there is lots of emphasis on outdoor education, on growing their own etc. In the same way that state school children are given a piece of fruit or veg each day, mine are too but it's carrots or tomatoes grown by the kids or apples or pears from the trees in the grounds.

IMVHO, DS and DD1 are far more aware of diversity and how lucky they are from being at the school. Our local state primary is outstanding but is is nearly 100% white very affluent children whose parents are often earning six figures and driving 50k cars.
Of course, like everyone, we made our decision based on all these factors.

They do assess for entry though at 4, 7 and 11 and it is very competitive. So of course the children are all fairly able and many will of course want to be lawyers or doctors. But my point is that they are encouraged to look at a vast range of options and are supported whatever their choices.
I love it and every time I go in I wish I could have gone to school there.

Accio
actually DSs school do push for academic excellence but the boys are encouraged to persue learning for the sake of it and also encouraged into challenging rather than high income, high status careers.
I think the high income high status bit may well be the desire of many of the parents rather than the boys

DS2 was torn over a levels and was encouraged to persue the ones he a)loved and b) was best at so ended up doing art instead of history, latin instead of French.

DH didn't go to uni but is high status high income type. WE actively push DS to chose away from these as the object of his career.
If you get up everyday and spend it doing something dull and souless then the holidays and the money and the house are nice but the add on to your life.
I would wish for him to get out of bed and do soemthing that challenges and excites him. Our work life is the bulk of our waking hours after all.

Butthese are parental influences aren'tthey. And perhaps the high income high status aspiration is actually often parents assuming their offspring will follow on and improvefrom the achievments - without contemplating whether that has made them happy or just helped them aquire stuff

I've been following this thread and although it disgressed from the OP's post which first drew my attention it has made me feel very depressed about my DD and her friends being in a state comp, albeit a decent one.

Thank you mrshackleton for your post and lifting my spirits I totally agree with you.

I also agree with Xenia in a way. I could never go out with a man with a Scouse accent. South African accent now your talking.

I'm not sure if Xenia is real. How come you have to maintain your exh, unless he has been looking after the children Or is this just an arrangement for the super rich.