to think many parents who send their children to the lower quality independent schools are so pretentious it is cringeworthy?

[Barrelofloves]

Is it due to insecurity? Because I have found the seriously loaded/titled folk are not like that at all.

Obviously I agree with LeQ above (and I've been working until 11.45pm hence not posting) but it's fun, my work so that's okay. I want all my children to find work they love 9and I'm sure most of my detractors on this thread will love me reporting that at the youngests' bed time my 2 student age daughters were talking about what they would do if they had won £90m on the euro lottery and not listening to my blandishments about money not buying happiness and the havoc it has wrought to past lottery winners. They said in that case I was excluded from any gifts when they win the next £90m to ensure my future happiness unsullied by money).....

Not sure I agree that 2 years out of the state system prepares you for state secondary. I think 2 years boxing and how to ensure your personality can cope with being fragile and different in a ruthlessly I must be the same as everyone to fit in teenage environment (ie some sessions with a psychologist) whilst staying in the state system so you have a phallanx of friends to go on to the same secondary with is the preparation you need. Taking a child of into a posher environment to bond with friends who will stay in the private sector only to thrust the poor child back at 11 doesn't really sound the best preparation. Better to get him funding, a scholarship or increase parental earnings to pay to keep him in the private sector. £10k a year is about £200 net a week of earnings which for some may be an hour's work and for others about 30 hours (depending on career choice, IQ, educational background and perhaps accent and class and connections) but is probably achievable for many particularly if you think out of the box. I've had periods when I've seen the 5am to 7am Saturday morning slot as a chance to do 2 hours work and plenty of people work all night. It is all possible. We are only limited by limitations we put on ourselves.

But I don't feel like working all night despite having 5 children and an ex husband to fund so I'll go to bed.

boxing??

"Unless you have experienced it personally, its hard to describe. I am sure good state schools have it but so often it is lacking."

Abetadad, thanks for the reply. I am mildly curious about private schools and as I didn't go to one myself, I haven't experienced the "je ne sais quoi" that you speak of. But this thread has been interesting and I realise now that people with lots of money should def send their kids private.
I'm still unsure as to whether its always the best option for people who can't easily afford it. For example, I don't think that missing out on cultural activities and other valuable experiences like holidays abroad is worth the price of paying for private education.

"As for the girl educated so she didn't fit in with the locals most country areas manage that by having two groups of people surely.
"

Xenia, Yes, fair enough. Perhaps thats the direction she went.

"He was a much better man than what I've seen of bankers, thank you very much. We were poor in material goods but rich in books, love of nature, ethics, the things that really matter."

Grimmathegnome, I'm glad someone has said this. Your upbringing sounds similar to mine. My father got a first in physics at Liverpool uni, after coming from a poor, farming background. So he basically could have been whatever he wanted, but he always placed a low value on material goods and status. I truly admire him for this, above all else.

Good God woman, you are a piece of work! I haven't sent him to a school with posher people than he is familiar with. His last school was stuffed to the gills with high achieving middle class families - exactly the same as the kids he is with now. Its just a smaller,kinder, nicer school. I think two years of having fun and having his confidence nurtured is exactly what he needs right now.

And lets set aside the fact that I am actually quite posh myself...so its not quite Tiny Tim being allowed to visit the grand folk at the manor, only to have the dream ripped from him, and shipped back to the workhouse.

And thanks for the top tip of earning more money. Jeez, why didn't I think of that? Oh, dear me, yes I already have.

And blimey, do you advocate little boys being sent into the boxing ring to toughen them up?????

I have just logged in after finishing my marking, ( I had to work until half one in the morning but it is OK because I love my work despite the fact I am, as a teacher a povery stricken failure)

I am just wondering if rather than going to bed I should get in some boxing so I can control all those ferrel, smelly and dirty state school children tomorrow.

This thread has had some really surreal moments, peaking at around about 10:49. My siblings and I have attended five private schools between us, and none of them tried to make out that they were about doing good (although my mother would have loved that). They were about succeeding, which if you have bright children from wealthy well connected backgrounds is a bit of a easy target really. You'd have to be a pretty crap school not to succeed with that sort of material, especially when you can expel pretty much at will.

In my generation of my family no one is earning vast amounts, although we are all professionals or artists of one type or another. That's not because we went to state schools, we all went to private schools of greater or lesser "stature". It's because we weren't brought up to be yuppies.

I'm afraid that to me Xenia comes across as rather vulgar and ostentatious, and not terribly intelligent. But then I think she is probably a completely fictional character.

From this thread I would say that emotional intelligence, tact and empathy doesn't figure highly with Private school alumni.

We all make choices for our children, we make the best of our situations. The insulting sweeping generalisations on state school pupils and their parents are very lazy, misguided and say an awful lot more about the poster(s) than anyone else.

If you have fashioned yourself a bubble where money is the be all and end all, you don't have to mix with anyone from a "lesser" background and you sit on a website making outrageous insults about vast swathes of society to make yourself feel good, well then a little work on the "self" wouldn't go amiss. What a narrow and blinkered world view.

I'm not particularly ostentatious. It's the nouveau riche who have the Bentleys and those without anything to prove who make do with the volvo or saab. It's a very intellectually interesting exercise in how to get that balance right and teenagers are very good at knowing what works. Although I suppose it's guaranteed that every parent ever will embarrass their children as teenagers.

One interesting point made often in the media recently is that if people move up, do better etc that means others are moving down which the Government doesn't like to talk about. So you might get peopel such as nooka educated in the private sector but the children all pick arts subjects and end up a bit poor in money terms, but not of course in spirit. Some people then move down the class structure - I remember a friend of my daughter who had to leave Hab at 11 because of financial difficulties and she has moved class but they weren't very posh to start with.

I'm not fictional but I'm certainly not very clever compared with lots of people with whom I've worked but I do work very hard and I like what I do which is really all I want for the children, that they pick work they like. That was the advice of my father who died last year, to us children and he's right. He was very wise psychiatrist. Good conversations with teenagers about careers, what they want to get out of their lives, what their values and motivations are and also ensuring they know that X career means you can't keep horses, can't send your children to private schools and will never ski again but you might adore it and Y career means you might actually have it all or Z career you can work a few hours a day and not earn much.

Lizzylou - I really don't know how you can extrapolate that based on one or two posters.

I could point out that the overwhelming majority of children going through criminal justice system go to/went to state school.
Can I extrapolate from that, that state schoolers have a criminal mindset?
I could point out that the overhwelming majority of the illiterate in this country were state educated. Can I extrapolate from that that the state schoolers aren't taught to read?

I know it suits you to believe that we are all like Xenia - but deep down you must know that's not true. One only has to read the thread to know that's not true.

sakura - your father has an almost identical background to me. I am from a poor farming background, good at science at school, went to University but feel I really do not want any more material things in life.

Not sure if your father went to a private school but I did because my parents scrimped and scraped every penny that they had (and more) to send me to a not very good private boarding school from 11 - 18. I went to an ordinary village primary school before that but my parents' sacrifice gave me an opportunity and an outlook on life that I have carried with me since.

It did not give me any contacts or other advantages except a chance to learn in a decent environment that the local Comprehensive could not. It had a good ethos that everyone should make the very best of what talent they have. It had a good Deputy Head that encouraged me to apply for Oxford when I would never have had the confidence and my parents had no idea. It lead directly to me meeting my wonderful DW and a series of well paid jobs that means I can pay for my DSs to go to a slightly better private school than I went to. I still look back on those 7 years at secondary school as the most important and influential days of my life.

There are people who send DCs to prvate schools for all sorts of social and deeply misguided reasons but it really is not the case for most parents.

I am proud to say I went to a lower quality independent school but it was still very good and better than the state school alternative. My DSs go to a slightly better school than me and it is much better than the local state school alternatives. I wish all state schools were as good as my DSs but it is not Eton and it is not all about 'lakes' and 'shiney hair' and 'better uniform' and 'playing rugby' and 'making contacts'. Its about something deeper and long lasting that I do think chldren from many private schools have and they carry through life - a sort of can do confidence and desire to make the most of themselves.

Xenia - I agree with what you said in your last 08.35 a.m post. Not sure what you do in the City but I suspect you may be a trader like I used to be.

I know that other people have reacted adversely to your posts and I do not agree with some of the things you have said but I know where you are coming from and I know that 'winner take all world' you work in very well and probably would have said similar things to you 10 years ago. Your posts are inevitably coloured by that experience.

Sucess in your job is measured by precisely how much money you made today and nothing else. Unlike many (most) jobs your good and bad days are very starkly written in black and red ink. Fundamentally, what you say is therefore true. If you want to be guaranteed going to the best University and the best highest paying jobs in the City then private schools give a child the best chance of getting them.

Most jobs though are not like that and many people get a lot out of the non monetary aspects of a job. I gave up the world of work you still inhabit and became a lecturer for a while. A job I also loved and one I could not have done without going to a good University and have a good school education. Not everyone has to work in the City and earn £ 1 million per year and thank goodness they don't otherwise society would fail. As I said in my earlier post, my view of private schools is that above all they strive to give children a sense of purpose in life to make a contribution to society, whatever that may be. Call it moral fibre, ethos, drive, determination or whatever.

Litchick, I don't believe that all parents sending children to fee paying schools/children at fee paying schools are like that at all, for that I am truly grateful.
I just find it deeply insulting to have extremely rude and insensitive remarks made about the vast majority of the population.
Be it their hair, shoes, accents, level of ambition/intellect, all have come under attack.
Honestly, Litchick if you were reading this from the other side you'd just despair that there were such ignorant and rude people judging and insulting your children and your choices.

Oh and I may be generalising and using the words posters/people so I am not getting overly annoyed and personal about one person. Even though it is more than they deserve.

Can't believe I've been drawn back into this pointless debate (but I'm too weak willed and nosey to miss out - showing an obvious lack of moral fibre as I only went to a Grammar School)

but Lizzylou - if you look back over the thread and talking of sweeping generalisations.......... I really don't think your comment concerning emotional intelligence, tact and empathy should apply to all public school alumni on this thread - in fact it's really rather rude and insulting.

Xenia and her generalised old fashioned views concerning class, accent, status, etc and public school are definitely an exception NOT a rule. I too wonder if she is a "made up person" - if not, I would just love to discuss this topic over a couple of bottles of wine with her. (don't suppose you live in Devon Xenia!!)

ABetaDad: the thing is going to your private school did give you an advantage, of course it did because by your own admission you wouldn't have even applied, yet alone got a place at Oxford, had you not gone there (although you may have done, you will never know!!). I'm glad you appreciated your school and I am glad you can afford to buy your children and decent education.

I am absolutely not criticising you for your personal decision as to where to school your children, but this discussion goes round and round.

I pay because state schools aren't good enough (fair enough).

But, I'm not giving my child an advantage (well why are you paying then, what's the point??).

Everyone of course is entitled to choose where to send their child to school. But please, please remember some children (not mine, I hasten to add, who attend/ed an excellent state school) DO NOT HAVE a choice, and their chances in life are severely curtailed by this (and remember, it may mean they don't have shiny hair...).

You simply can't have it both ways. You can agree Life Isn't Fair at least.

(Wonders why on earth has allowed self to be dragged back onto this thread )

Drayford, it was a clumsy attempt at not making a personal attack.
I don't give a flying fig where anyone's DC study, what I care about is my family and my DC.

ABetaDad said "I wish all state schools were as good as my DSs"

But ABetaDad, as long as people send their children to private schools, state schools will suffer. I don't think there is any point wishing state schools were better when your choices are contributing to the problem.

OH and my DS's have shiny shoes and very healthy well groomed hair (at least at the start of the day, but they are only 5 and 3yrs old), even though they will be attending the state primary school.

Point taken Lizzylou - sorry, but I think Xenia is so thick-skinned she probably wouldn't notice!

Now I must summon up the vim, gumption and moral fibre to well and truly leave this thread alone.

Drayford. Me too.

I'm off with you two

Xenia - you have made me feel happy at last! I used to be embarrassed when my father picked me up from private school in an old Saab. Now I can at last relax knowing my family had nothing to prove

Have really enjoyed Madame Defarge's contribution to this thread. Keep typing!

But as I said earlier the advantage in going to an excellent state school in a nice mc area is just as much.
If you live in such an area and use such a school you cannot possibly take the moral high ground as you are giving your children a huge advantage over those kids attending the failing school servicing the deprived council estate up the road from you.

Yes, there are advantages in going to an independent school but please dont be disingenuous and ignore the enormous advantage children who attend excellent state schools have over those in n ot so good state schools.

Xenia, your regular reference to accent being a hinderance bothers me. Do you mean bad diction and grammar? My DH is a well educated successful lawyer. His spoken English is excellent yet everyone can clearly tell he is Scottish. I think he'd be bemused at the idea that his accent has been a disadvantage to him.

I find the idea that accent=disadvantage very dated. Badly spoken English, yes. Accent, absolutely not.

selectivememory - I agree with all of what you said @ 09:39:01 in response to my post. Yes it did give me an advantage and I hope it will give my children in having a good education but not because it gives them 'contacts' or whatever. I am very very grateful for the opportunity I had and I know how lucky I am and that life is not fair and that others do not have those advantages.

You also must recognise that you and other people have good state schools in their area by luck or can afford to buy a house near one. I would send DSs to a good state school if there was one near me. That isn't fair either, surely?

Both you and me must also agree that children who do not go to a good school either because their parents are not wealthy enough to either have a house in a good catchemnt area or be able to afford fees deserve better and the state should provide that but they don't.

AccioPiotGrgio - no I do not agree it is my fault that the local secondary schools in my area are bad because I send DSs to a private school. Likewise the Comprehensive school in my area when I was a child was worse than my private school well before I went there. How far back do we have to go to accept that there have always been bad state schools? They were there before I was born. There are bad private schools too but the reason we do not hear about them is because they go out of business very quickly while bad state schools just go on and on funded by the state to deliver bad education for years.

That is why I am strongly in favour of vouchers that can be used to pay for any school that a parent may choose, be it state or private or religious foundation or even a new one set up by a group of parents. That in my view is the best way to improve schools - let the bad ones fail by giving parents real choices. Not by forcing middle class parents to send their kids to poor schools. It would be great for me to get a voucher to send DSs to the school they go to and great if more parents had that choice and the school thrived as a result.