Bringing up my child vegetarian, more of a WWYD??

[girlafraid]

Would love opinions on this, another thread had me up in the night thinking about this!

DH and i have both been vegetarians for many years and (naturally to my mind) have not given DS meat to eat, he eats what we eat

We eat a balanced diet, plenty of protein and i like to think I am a fair cook

I have always been of the mind that DS can choose to eat meat himself as soon as he able to express a preference but I'm not going to cook it for him now IFYSWIM.

I've been wondering though, when does this start? Do I agree to him having meat at nursery? Or let him fill his boots at parties if he wants? Looking for some opinions, especially if you have been through this yourself

DH and I are not opposed to eating meat per se but don't feel it is healthy or environmentally responsible to eat as much meat as most westerners do. TBH I think the optimum diet would be to eat meat perhaps once a week or every other week, but I never get round to doing it!

I don't really like the idea of sending him to a party with a lunch box and don't want him to feel left out, though DH doesn't think that is so important

Thanks for reading if you got through this

I am really responding to the original post so might be repeating things here.

We are bringing up our daughter a veggie. She is 2 1/2 now and she has never had any meat or fish.

It is really easy to cook healthy and varied veggie meals these days so she has a very varied diet. Mind you, my DH and I have been veggies for many years so we are used to it.
She has just now started nursery part time and their veggie (as well as non-veggie) menu is brilliant so no worries there.

Most nurseries and schools cater well for veggies so you really shouldn't feel the need to compromise and let them have meat if you don't want to. But of course it is your choice.

The point I am trying to make is that if you are bringing your child up a vegetarian then you should not have to compromise in nursery, school, when eating out etc...

At all kids' parties we have been too there has always been enough veggie food for her not to feel there is nothing for her to eat.

We will of course let her make her own decision on whether to carry on being a veggie when she is old enough, whenever it may be, but for now she is a veggie and a very healthy and happy one.

Riven - I live in a very poor new town, with very little in the way of anything. Most people I know live on burgers, chicken nuggets, mince and take aways. the only other veggies I have ever met here (and I have lived here for a long time and know a LOT of people)were two women I worked with for a while who were what you might call Fashion vegetarians. None of my 5 kids know any other vegetarians (my DS1 attended one of the biggest secondary schools in Scotland and some days they didn't have a veggie meal at lunch time.) I have a neighbour who was vegetarian for a long while (since she was a sab in her teens,) but who reverted to meat eating when she hit 40 and was worried about the menopause.

Everywhere and everyone doesn't offer veggie options and often (particularly for kids) you get one option maybe two. Even buying a sandwich can be a hassle. I don't like cheese or egg mayonnaise, so generally, I am stuffed. And people are endlessly surprised when I tell them that I don't eat meat or fish. I often get the well, you must eat chicken line or what about tuna. And nobody gets that I don't eat jelly or marshmallows, even my mother after all these years, still makes trifle when I come for a family dinner (so I have to eat the custardy cream bit and leave the rest!)

valhalla - I believe the sitch at uni has changed a great deal now and that veggies are much better catered for. Although, MY DS1 is at uni and he reckons that the veggie food in his hall last year was pretty dire. Things are much better now than they used to be, especially in cities. But I don't live in one and we are a bit backward here, in lots of ways. Personally, I blame the really bad schools

Morloth, I assume that the arrogant, naive and dumb suggestions were aimed at me. Am I arrogant? Maybe...yes I do think that everyone should be vegan of course. Naive, definitely not. I do not live my life in this way without full knowledge of all the relevant information...and PLEASE let's not have the one about what would happen to the sheep, cows etc. if we didn't eat meat. There's a 'supply and demand' situation here and quite frankly anyone who raises this as a valid argument must be either deluded or hiding behind it as an excuse. Dumb?? Blatantly not so I won't even go there other than to say that it's not unusual to be insulted by people who don't understand the passion behind my conviction on this subject or choose not to and have no intelligent response to offer.
Regarding the taste aspect as part of the decision making process, this is a pretty shallow criterion for inclusion and I would no more offer my DD meat to see if she likes the taste than I would offer human flesh or alcohol which may also taste nice but would be very wrong. All I can see on that point is that some people clearly believe that a life may be readily taken just to please someone's taste buds. Does this make me believe I am 'morally superior'? To be honest, yes it probably does. I don't believe any living creature should suffer just so I can enjoy the taste. If other people do, then I guess that's because they feel they are wholly superior to whichever tortured corpse ends up on their plate. Personally I wouldn't want that on my conscience, especially not just for my own greed.
Do those who do not think we should inflict our morals on our children therefore treat any moral-based behaviour as a matter for their DC to decide? Verbal abuse and swearing, telling lies, unkindness to others, even wearing inappropriate (provocative) clothes can all be categorised as moral issues and I would hazard a guess that most parents would expect their children to follow a certain moral code in these areas, yet somehow the moral decision about eating flesh should be a child's choice even if the parent believes it to be wrong. This makes no sense.
As far as it being difficult to be veggie, I don't believe this to be true but even where it may be true there are always alternatives. They just might require a little more effort. I would sooner make the effort than compromise my principles.

Eh? I think anyone who believes 100% that their way is the only right way (about pretty much anything not just eating habits) is both naive, arrogant and dumb.

Just because you believe yourself to be morally superior does not make it so.

Missy - you are AFAIAC.

I have never "got" the 'we'd never see a sheep again, they'd all die out' argument either.

After all, they can't breed unaided by man and would only be kept for profit wouldn't they? They'd be eliminated from the world if there was no money in them

Sure they will. Just like domestic cats, forest ponies, foxes, and all those dogs in rescue....

Morloth - Now we're moving to the 'I don't tell other people what they should do, apart from my own children of course, and the OP should make their own choice but my choice is the morally superior one' phase of the argument. This will be followed by reading into things other posters have said and assuming they know what other posters believe/do... The disbelief that someone could make an argument without offering an opinion or in fact having one... e.t.c. then the thread will get new posters and re-set itself...

I think possibly curiosity we have been on the internet tooooo long. I am starting to feel quite jaded.

I think the veggie/meat eater arguments are amongst my favourites though though (I think because I genuinely don't care one way or another, unlike some of the other controversial subjects). I enjoy it especially when the veggies use emotive language (like the meat eaters are unaware that meat is actually dead animals OMG!) to which the meat eaters almost inevitably respond with "mmmmmmm juicy bloody flesh, this thread is making me want a great big steak..." (which I have to admit did cross my mind).

There needs to be Godwins for all of the standard subjects.

Sorry Curiosity, am just flitting in and out, but as a stand alone comment it seemed a bit odd!

The party scenario seems to keep recurring. Just wondering, (I know it's not exactly the same thing) but if you were at a large family party and most of the adults were drinking alcohol, and your 2/3/4 year old child sees this and grabs a drink wanting to try it, how does this sit? Do you let them?

curiositykilled...no it won't because I've had enough of this thread. Even if I hadn't you're inaccurate and it is actually you who is making assumptions here. There are a few people on this thread that understand where I am coming from, thank God. Those that don't I kind of feel sorry for in a morally superior sort of way. I hope you and Morloth enjoy continuing to kiss each other's corpse munching butts and Morloth, for once I agree with you: you two probably have been on here trolling for way too long. Fortunately I don't have as much spare time as you clearly have so I'll be off now to live a real life.
I hope that the OP comes to a decision that sits comfortably with her.

Is that a flounce?

Well.... spoke to DH about nursery today as I was actually leaning towards DS having meat there once he starts(or at least trying it), bit of a cop out maybe but I am quite anti quorn/meat subsitutes and am a bit worried about his iron as he is a skinny boy

HOWEVER DH really doesn't want DS to be given meat as the "default position" although if he asks/ wants to try some then he's fine with that. I think on this one issue I will allow DH the final say, doesn't happen often but I see his reasoning!

I think if you are going to raise DS as a veggie then your DH is probably right in saying that meat shouldn't be the default position. Can the nursery be relied upon to provide good quality veggie food?

We live in an ethinically mixed area with lots of veggies kids so I hope so

I guess as with so many things when raising children, we'll just see how it goes

See, breast feeding, use of dummies, cloth nappies and all the other things I used to be absolutely clear on - until I actually had a child!

Morloth - Yes, I think it was a flounce! A flounce combined with an assumption that I eat meat and that I need to get a life and that I was talking to her! lol

Are we trolling? Is this what trolling is?

Nah, that wasn't trolling.

Trolling would be if I said that Missy8c was just grumpy and weak from lack of iron and should go eat a steak (preferably rare) to cheer herself up. THAT would be trolling, so I won't say that.

Morloth - I have been on the internet too long for sure.... There's not much else I can do right now! lol! DH is calling me 'Hermit whale'

Girl afraid - Not sure nursery/school food is up to much generally whether it is meat/veggie. The veggie might be better quality than the meat in fact cos the meat is likely to be the cheapest crappest meat money can buy and there's not so much variation in terms of quality where veggie food is concerned. They can't feed the same kind of meat replacement products every day surely if there's a lot of veggie kids?

Morloth - !

Riven - have never met any other HEers in real life either. I am a minority of one in many ways!

As above, Missy, I believe that children need to be given the tools to make their own morality. I also believe that things like swearing/fighting/lying/stealing are unacceptable behaviours because they disrupt the smooth running of society and have a negative effect on social cohesion and stability. Veganism only really affects those directly involved and therefore is a matter of personal not collective morality.

However as you have effectively stormed off, perhaps you don't agree.

Should have said, re the alcohol thing, of course I wouldn't allow my small child to drink alcohol because they wanted to, what a stupid question. Alcohol is very dangerous for children and can kill them. Why on earth would you do that? Meat, on the other hand, is not, in the main, poison, it is food.

A sip of wine would not kill a child, it would do them about as much good as some reconstituted crap on a stick at a kids party.

I didn't get the impression that anyone was talking about a sip of wine, more like would you let your child have a drink because other, ADULT people were.

The answer to that is obviously not. A little bit of animal product cannot be compared to the toxicity of alcohol for a child's body.`

I am sorry, but I really don't understand why people have to be so rude and intolerant of other's choices or feel so morally superior because of choices that they make which they then force on others. The comparisons which are being bandied about on here are ludicrous, frankly, and invalidate any reasoned arguments people may be able to make.

'I have teenagers and know several kids who do one thing at home, to please their parents, but sneakily do other stuff behind their backs. I always feel that, especially with teens, this is a big issue. It's a bit like drinking or having girlfriend. If they want to try it out, they will, whether you are happy about it or not. How would you feel if you found out your child had been eating meat behind your back? Or if they leave home to go to uni or whatever and start to eat it then? There comes a time, when they have to be responsible for themselves.'

I agree entirely StressedHEmum, I have lived in the same area for a long time and the babies from mothers and toddlers groups are now teens and beyond and they don't always turn out the way you would expect! It makes me smile when you see some of them agreeing with the parent, and I know that they do the opposite behind their back! In fact I was having a discussion only the other day with my DS and some of his friends and they had the view the stricter the parent the more devious the DC. I believe them. I think that with older DCs communication is the key-you keep talking and you set by example.

I really think that you are in for big trouble valhalla if you force your own views on your DCs. I know several people with very strong forceful mothers and they were too scared to openly rebel as teenagers, but they got in a real mess with their lives in their 20s. It is important to listen. It is a perfectly valid idea to eat meat-I am quite happy with it. If I were to be a vegetarian it would be for health reasons-nothing to do with animal welfare.Your DCs may see nothing wrong in it. There is no right answer-only the right answer for you.(I never know why those people who are so concerned about animal welfare drink milk-I can only think that they have no idea how their milk is produced).
I took my DCs to church from a young age-they have rejected it and don't go. That is their choice-I exposed them to it, I can't do more.

I hestitate to copy and paste my favorite poem about DCs-if people have read me before they will get fed up with it, but I think it is so apt for those who think that it is acceptable to tell their DC what to think.

On Children
Kahlil Gibran

Your children are not your children.
They are the sons and daughters of Life's longing for itself.
They come through you but not from you,
And though they are with you yet they belong not to you.

You may give them your love but not your thoughts,
For they have their own thoughts.
You may house their bodies but not their souls,
For their souls dwell in the house of tomorrow,
which you cannot visit, not even in your dreams.
You may strive to be like them,
but seek not to make them like you.
For life goes not backward nor tarries with yesterday.

You are the bows from which your children
as living arrows are sent forth.
The archer sees the mark upon the path of the infinite,
and He bends you with His might
that His arrows may go swift and far.
Let our bending in the archer's hand be for gladness;
For even as He loves the arrow that flies,
so He loves also the bow that is stable.

I