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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Bringing up my child vegetarian, more of a WWYD??

128 replies

girlafraid · 28/10/2009 08:21

Would love opinions on this, another thread had me up in the night thinking about this!

DH and i have both been vegetarians for many years and (naturally to my mind) have not given DS meat to eat, he eats what we eat

We eat a balanced diet, plenty of protein and i like to think I am a fair cook

I have always been of the mind that DS can choose to eat meat himself as soon as he able to express a preference but I'm not going to cook it for him now IFYSWIM.

I've been wondering though, when does this start? Do I agree to him having meat at nursery? Or let him fill his boots at parties if he wants? Looking for some opinions, especially if you have been through this yourself

DH and I are not opposed to eating meat per se but don't feel it is healthy or environmentally responsible to eat as much meat as most westerners do. TBH I think the optimum diet would be to eat meat perhaps once a week or every other week, but I never get round to doing it!

I don't really like the idea of sending him to a party with a lunch box and don't want him to feel left out, though DH doesn't think that is so important

Thanks for reading if you got through this

OP posts:
curiositykilled · 29/10/2009 09:08

Yes, Morloth - this thread is becoming formulaic. Every AIBU thread seems to end up with the majority, whatever the issue, saying they think people should make their own choices and a couple of people arguing that that is not appropriate because their choice is 'morally superior' and they think others should follow that.

stressedHEmum · 29/10/2009 09:13

valhalla - how can you control everything your kids eat, or anything else, at their age?

I have teenagers and know several kids who do one thing at home, to please their parents, but sneakily do other stuff behind their backs. I always feel that, especially with teens, this is a big issue. It's a bit like drinking or having girlfriend. If they want to try it out, they will, whether you are happy about it or not. How would you feel if you found out your child had been eating meat behind your back? Or if they leave home to go to uni or whatever and start to eat it then? There comes a time, when they have to be responsible for themselves.

Re the religion thing. Yes, I do take the children (the younger ones) to church with me, but I don't expect them to believe, just to listen and process the information. In fact both my elder boys are atheists and DS3 is heading that way. OH, as well as being a meat eater, is an atheist, so they get his point of view given them all the time as well. They have also been given info about most other major belief systems. Then, they decide for themselves. I still don't think that it is a parents job to give their kids their own morality. Children need to be able to make their own decisions.

Just to be clear, I am not a part time vegetarian nor am I one for health reasons. I became one 30 years ago in protest over the way animals were farmed. Nothing to do, really, with the actual killing of them, although this I also find upsetting, more the fact that while they were alive, their lives were pretty dire. That's why I will feed my kids ethically farmed meat, at least those animals have a decent life. I don't see vegetarianism as a bit of an alternative lifestyle, either, although, where we live, it is certainly a very rare choice.My kids do enjoy meat and fish, my DS3 even enjoys going fishing sometimes, but they also enjoy vegetarian food so they have the experience and knowledge to make their own choices. The key thing is that I don't think that my morality has any more value than other people's.

It is also my belief, having grown up with a close friend from a farming family and having a brother and SIL who run a farm, that if everyone became veggie, that would be a very bad thing for farm animals. I really have no wish to see cows, sheep etc., disappear from our countryside, nor to see millions of creatures being destroyed to no end, which is what would happen. These animals cannot live in the wild, are not suited to life without human intervention, and even if they were, would upset the whole ecosystem because of the effect that roving, wild cows would have on the indigenous food chains.

As far as drinking milk goes; surely most vegetarians would use organic dairy products, anyway? Modern dairy farming is horrendous. it is absolutely more unethical than meat farming, especially where the meat animals are reared outdoors. And the fate of male dairy calves is awful ( this is why I will buy rose veal, at least the calves have some kind of life and a reasonably humane death.) Again, I don't think that we should all run out an become vegan, though, because what would happen to all the dairy animals? I certainly only buy organic dairy products, mainly from a local farm, where the cows have a decent life.

I don't expect people to agree with me, everyone is entitled to their own position, but I do think that, very often, opinions on this are based on emotional responses rather than hard practicalities.Throughout history man has milked and eaten animals. The earliest humans used animals to provide almost everything that they needed. My problem, now, is that things have gone too far, particularly in the western world and that a new balance needs to be found where we treat this planet and all the life on it with a bit more respect.

I think that if anyone wishes to bring their children up as vegetarians, than that is all good as long as that parent realises that their child may choose to eat meat for themselves, and respects that decision, should it come. The OP should decide for herself, along with her husband, what is right for their family without feeling like she is somehow letting the side down if her child eats some meat.

Morloth · 29/10/2009 09:14

There is a script for veggie/meat eater, circumcision/non-circumcision, BF/FF, natural birth/c-section, pro-life/pro-choice, SAHM/WOHM and a bunch of others.

We go round and round, occasionally get nasty, throw in a troll or two. But really for the majority of people with internet access everything that has needed to be said has already been said over and over and over again.

I thought I did quite well not to troll and stir up some shit with the bloody bodyparts comment, it was sooooooo tempting .

stressedHEmum · 29/10/2009 09:17

Morloth and Curiosity - see, I wish I was as succinct as you too. That's what I wanted to say.

It is wrong to try and put your own choices or morality onto other people. Everyone should be able to choose for themselves and to do that they need all the info and experiences that are relevant.

mmrred · 29/10/2009 09:23

With you, Piscesmoon - I know that my DSS's older brother 'sneaks' non-veggie food regardless of all the glorious technicolour descriptions of twitching Beatrix Potter friends being slapped between two slices of bread...I've also gently guided my DSS away from the gelatine-type sweets he knows fine well he's not supposed to have.

I certainly gave DD (now 15) a vegetarian diet when at 6 or 7 she said she wished to be one (and didn't try to brainwash her by telling her 'the truth' about vegetables being grown in disgusting, faeces-ridden soil, or refuse to cook it to show her how revolting I found her choice)

OK, so this post is a bit tongue in cheek, and as I've said, I have no problems with vegetarian choices, but I do think there are enough pressures on children in terms of eating without adding the 'rhetoric' of anti-meat campaigns.

sarah293 · 29/10/2009 09:24

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curiositykilled · 29/10/2009 09:24

morloth - lol yes... Don't forget the radical feminists/non radical feminists, pre 6month weaners/post 6month weaners, extended BFs/non extended BFs as well!

I always find it a bit that there are actually people who believe the whole world should think and live as they do, but I guess that's having real courage in your convictions isn't it so more power...

Well done for your restraint! ROFL

Morloth · 29/10/2009 09:30

Not sure if it is courage of conviction or arrogance curiosity, possibly a bit of both. It is great fun when somebody thinks they are right and their position is the only valid one. Well it is fun until they get any sort of power, then it is a PITA.

If everyone would just do as I tell them, the world would be a much nicer place - for me mostly.

curiositykilled · 29/10/2009 09:31

riven - taste is the only way eating meat/fish affects you isn't it... It doesn't give you nutrients or affect the way you body works at all... Nope...

If you read I said truly informed choice - taste is an element involved in diet choice as is the effect of eating various things on the body as are the various moralities of eating various things. It's like drinking alcohol or coffee. How can you make a truly informed choice if you have never tried it? You can make a choice but it is not a truly informed one. It is, however, not necessary to make a truly informed choice if the morality matters more to you but to some people making an truly informed choice is important to them.

Before you start flaming I have no feelings about the superiority of either way of doing things, I'm just pointing out that there are different ways of doing things.

curiositykilled · 29/10/2009 09:36

morloth - nah, I'm willing to give them the courage of conviction thing. I can understand how, if you were very convinced something was the right way you'd be concerned about other people doing things the 'wrong way'. It's kinda nice they're looking out for other people...

Morloth · 29/10/2009 09:41

OK, maybe not arrogance then just dumb or perhaps naive? I don't think I have been 100% sure about being right about anything since I was about 21.

I would like some of your nice hormones please, mine are just making me grumpy - have taken to calling bubs DH's spawn because it will not let me sleep - much the same way he likes to snore and not let me sleep.

curiositykilled · 29/10/2009 09:48

Are you sure? The hormones turn on you on a pinhead. Yeah, sure the worlds lovely now but it's very possible I'll be sulking and kicking DH in 5 mins...

He just brought me breakfast in bed but he breathes through his mouth... on me... he rolls over and mouth-breathes sweaty mouth breath on my face...

I'm still going with courage of convictions... Anyone can tell me they think I should do what they say...

I will also have 2 screaming babies trying to bite me every two hours in the night at some point probably in the next week... You might be better to cut and run...

sarah293 · 29/10/2009 09:48

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MrsFawlty · 29/10/2009 10:59

Curiosity - that surely only applies if taste is the only criteria? I don't need to try meat to know that I find the whole idea of eating dead flesh repellent and for me, ethically wrong.

curiositykilled · 29/10/2009 11:11

have you read my response to riven re ethical/moral/informed choice mrsfawlty?

No, it doesn't. It doesn't only apply if taste is the only criteria, that's a rather absurd statement. It applies if taste, the affect of eating meat on the physical and emotional body, the knowledge of how animals are farmed and slaughtered for food and ethical choice e.t.c. are all included in the decision over eating meat and fish. That's what an informed decision is. An informed decision can also be an ethical/moral one and an ethical/moral one can be made without choosing to try meat or fish if the person feels the morals/ethics are more important than trying the meat/fish.

Of course taste is a part of choosing your diet that's part of the reason why someone chooses a spiced tofu meal over a quorn lasagne or a pork steak over a beef one. It would be rather absurd to say taste has no part in diet choice or that you cannot feel different physical and emotional effects from the various things you consume.

mysteryfairy · 29/10/2009 11:22

Apologies if I am repeating stuff as I haven't read the thread. I am vegetarian and as a compromise with meat eating DH my three children have been brought up pescaterian.

In retrospect I wish I had brought them up to eat meat, at nursery, school etc, although I couldn't have cooked it at home. I have worried about their diets constantly over the years and been really pre-occupied with them getting enough iron etc. I also think as a working mum that vegetarian children are more time consuming to cater for - there is a lot of chopping and soaking etc.

Plus for the kids it has made life awkward at school, at parties, on every residential ever etc. Just as an example the catering after rugby for DS1 and DS2 (on rugby teams of different senior schools) is never suitable for non meat eaters so they always stand out as they have to take their own stuff with them.

I know people will invoke freedom of choice when their kids are old enough but whilst my older two DC (DSs aged 14 and 12) think that they would like to eat meat they now can't bring themselves to do so. I think it is a lot easier to give up meat than to persuade yourself it is a normal thing to eat having spent your formative years not doing so.

sarah293 · 29/10/2009 11:25

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Vallhala · 29/10/2009 11:30

I don't recall saying that I believe the whole world should think and act as I do, so I take it that this wasn't aimed at me. As I said, its entirely down to the OP how she rears her own DC.

StressedHEmum, if my children were found to eat meat they'd be in big trouble, just as they would be if they told you to feck off or kicked your dog - it's unacceptable and morally wrong. Whilst I'm their servant mother and sole carer (call me old fashioned here) I expect my children to do as they are told and act in a respectful manner. In this case I'm speaking of respect towards animals, not towards me, though the latter would be expected too. When they leave home its their choice - whilst I am responsible for them, its mine. I appreciate that people will disagree but thats just the way it is and nothing anyone can say will change it.

I find all this talk about choices/making their own decisions odd, particularly with reference to younger children. Apart fromm the obviou, that to give meat is to impose that choice upon the child, where does it stop? Does the child have the deciding say in where he goes to school, in which town or house you move to....?

mysteryfairy · 29/10/2009 11:44

My DCs are also very slim. I'm not worried re obesity - more vitamins, minerals, decent nutrition etc. We are naturally a v pale family (my parents are Irish and we have typical Irish colouring) but I do worry about them being anaemic.

The rugby example is one of the awkward situations I can think of.

I can also think of:
not being able to eat haribo (causes DD particular distress as everyone seems to bring them in on their birthdays at her school - another thread in itself!)
rarely having more than one choice on any children's menu (getting less of a problem as they get older)
pretty poor choices on a lot of mainstream adult menus
never having a choice of school dinner - having to eat the veggie option even if it is totally grim
particularly bad at DSs village first school where some weeks he had cheese pasty 4 days out of 5 (til I switched him onto packed lunches)
going to children's parties where the catering is hot dogs and getting nothing to eat
going to children's parties at burger king and only being able to eat chips (This was threatre plus a meal - wasn't warned where the meal was or I would have made sure she was better catered for)
rooting through party bags to throw the sweets away
having to explain prior to every playdate, sleep over etc for the last 14 years and usually being met by bemusement and parents claiming there is nothing they can cater

Maybe there is no more work to a veggie diet, but I do often feel it would be easier to do say a chop plus two steamed veg. Def if DH does them a piece of fish plus say brocolli and carrots it's a lot less work than the meals I make...

BTW I am a totally commited vegetarian myself. Just feel a lot less hardline now re the kids than I did when I was an idealistic 24 year old making the choice for my first baby. And that choice whether right or wrong has definitely caused problems over the years.

sarah293 · 29/10/2009 11:50

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Vallhala · 29/10/2009 11:52

mysteryfairy we had the Haribo disappointment too... but not any more!

www.veggiestuff.com/acatalog/vegetarian_sweets.html

Generally if the sweets are Kosher they are also vegetarian as most gummy sweets (and chocolate mousse too sadly) are made with pork gelatine.

Happy munching!

stressedHEmum · 29/10/2009 11:56

Actually, Valhalla, my kids were involved in the decision when we moved house as we all have to live here and, as we HE, they are intimately involved in all decisions regarding their education, even the initial choice to withdraw from school.

I am a big believer, funnily enough, in children being obedient and respectful but I still believe in freedom of choice and thought. I expect my children to do what they are told and to respect everyone, and if they ever kicked a dog they would be in BIG trouble! But that's just a question of being able to function in a family group and then in society at large as a reasonable human being. I believe in discipline rather than control. But again, I don't expect any one else to agree with me nor do I really want to change anyone else's mind. I just think it's important that we all recognise the validity of other peoples opinions and actions.

I also think that not allowing a child to, for example, eat a chicken lolly at a party is imposing a choice on him. What I would hope for with a little child would be that either they don't take it because it is alien to them or that they do take it and don't like it. Either way, it wouldn't horrify me, even if they did like it.

In response to Riven saying that being veggie isn't awkward socially, actually I find that it really can be. I have been to tons of things where I haven't really been able to eat the food and tons of other things (weddings etc.) where I have been the only veggie in about 200 people and been forced to eat the slice of soggy quiche that has kindly been provided for me . School events and residentials were a nightmare for me when I was young (went to Greece for 10 days when I was 16 and the only things I could eat were chips and the green salad) and are just as bad now for veggie kids, unless you want to exist on just the potatoes and vegetables for the week you are away or the biscuits, which you can't guarantee are veggie anyway. Even when eating with family, it can be difficult because they are all omnivores and I usually just get the veg and carbs (which suits me fine as long as there isn't any gravy/stock or whatever in them.)Perhaps it is a bit different if you know loads of other vegetarians or if you live in an ethnically/religiously diverse community where non meat eating is more common, but that isn't really the case here. As I say, I didn't even meet another veggie until I was at uni, and even then there were very few of us. (even when I did peace camps and demos and things, I was usually the only one.) You weren't even allowed to live in halls at uni if you were a vegetarian because they didn't cater for you.

sarah293 · 29/10/2009 12:00

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stressedHEmum · 29/10/2009 12:05

To be honest, I agree with mystyfairy re school food and parties as well. School dinner veggie options are almost always grim, soggy pizza, stodgy macaroni or a cheese sandwich most often. Our school tried to pass baked potatoes and tuna off as the veggie option some days. Kids parties here tend to be of the soft play/burgerking variety where, if they don't eat meat, kids have the chips and, when they are small, this can be a bit upsetting for them because they can't have what their friends can. While I never mind when these things happen to me, they are endlessly frustrating for kids.

Vallhala · 29/10/2009 12:07

Having been there myself as an HE parent in the past I quite see your point about discussing withdrawal from school and HE issues Stressed, but on the other matters we clearly differ. I certainly wasn't insinuating that your children aren't disciplined or respectful.

But I digress. I don't find being a vegetarian a problem, be that at friend's gatherings, restaurants, cafes or whatever although I did when I was in my mid-late teens and vegetarians were far more of a minority. It was at Uni that I had less problems, contrary to your own experience.

I live a few miles from a university city and the catering for vegetarians is superb here. There are some compensations for all that hustle and bustle! Even the children's menus are far improved from when my own two were little.