to not want to be defined by my marital status or surname?

[tealight]

To be not at all surprised that women still strive to achieve equality when some/many/most (???)women in marriage take on men?s surnames and (in marriage or not) agree to their children taking the man?s surname? That is the way it used to be when women and children were literally, in the eyes of the law, men?s property. That is the basis o the tradition for fathers to give their daughters away. And why should my marital status be used to define me every time I fill out my personal details? Miss, Mrs, Ms? Men just have Mr. Yet many of us still subscribe to this. Why why why?????

When I married I changed my name from one that is the same as my father to one that is the same as my husband. Both names are my name. Neither they, nor I, belong to anyone else.

People can make assumptions about my identity and relationship based on that if they like, but doesn't mean they'd be right.

I don?t understand why some people say ?well it?s your father?s name?. So, he?s allowed his ?own? name, yet my name?s only mine because my father gave it to me? Using that logic, the only person who actually ?owned? a name was the originator of the name, 800 or so years ago. Yes, it?s been passed down in a patriarchal fashion since then- I feel as though I?m changing that by keeping MY own name!

I?m not bothered really by what other people do- but I think it?s a shame that it?s so entrenched in society that a woman will change her name. It makes it very difficult for those of us who don?t change. I hate the fact that it was me that agonised over the decision for months, whereas for my husband it was no issue. It would be nice if, when people got married, it were more normal to firstly have a discussion as to whether it?s important to share a name. And then secondly, if it is, make the decision on whose name to have. I?ve spent a lot of time on wedding forums over the last year or so, and I find it really sad when women seem to be pressured into having a name they don?t want.

Our DCs will have both of our names. Up to them what they do when they?re older- they face exactly the same choices as we did!

I am Mrs H3 before that I was Mrs H2 and before that I was Mrs H1 before that I was Miss[fathers surname]but I have always been ME!!!I am Mum,Grandma,etc but always ME[first name]so I'll change surname at the drop of a wedding ring but......it wont change,diminish or demean ME.

The question for me is whether being married defines who you are. For most women this is not the case - like it was however many years ago. Women have careers and their own interests and own lives and being married is only one facet of who they are. For this reason I don't object to being called Mrs in fact I rather like it.

However, I am sure that if this question appears on application forms, you don't have to answer it. It would be sex discrimination if they used it as a reason for not giving you a job.

Something to note, actually: there is an issue of discrimination here when 'Ms' gets you a lower score on your credit rating than either Miss or Mrs - I have found this myself. Admittedly my credit rating is horrible anyway, but it seems to go up a bit when I use Miss.

I am Ms DH's surname. I agonized about it, but The question has a lot of history for dh as both his dad & grandad died when he was young & his mum & grandmum remarried & changed their names so he has a different surname to both of them. So I knew the dds would take his name & I wanted to have the same as them. The bit that surprises me is that his mum changed her name on the second marriage (there were no more dcs on the cards), ie chose to have a different name from her son. She is a lovely woman & they get on well, I guess she must just be traditional.

An acquaintance of mine got married & both he & his wife changed their names to a third, unconnected name, which is an interesting solution.

'When I married I changed my name from one that is the same as my father to one that is the same as my husband. Both names are my name. Neither they, nor I, belong to anyone else.

I agree with the FallenMadonna-and I have had another one in between-they are all my names.
If I were to need a professional name I would choose my paternal ggggrandmother's first name and my maternal ggrandfather's surname, because I like them and I think that I would be the only one in the World!
My brother's wife has kept her DH1's ex husband's surname-I think this is because it is a lovely romantic heroine type name!
None of it is an issue. I just get irritated when people bring the feminist issue into it-as if keeping your father's name is a feminist statement!

Just a question, if you give dcs the double barrelled name, you say they can choose one if they want to when they're older. But can they legally use just one surname when they have two on their birth certificate?

We gave our children both our surnames as my husband didn't want me to take his name (I only wanted to because I HATE mine). But I've been wondering if they will be able to choose just one name later?

ps. I hate my dh's surname too as it means rabbit in his language!! I can't win!! grin

Binkster try living in Iceland where every body man and woman is defined by their father's name hence "dottir" for females and "sonn" for males preceded by the fathers's first name. Everybody kind of gets a new name this is an old Viking tradition and does not seem to bother the Icelandics overly. So why the hell would you lose sleep over such an issue, you have clearly led a v.charmed lifr if that for you is a major problem!

I chose a different name from my DS when I got married a second time after being widowed,thefowlandthepusseycat-I would have found it very odd not to and I don't think it would have been fair to DH2. My DS has kept his father's name.

Her first husband's ex-husband's surname? Now that's terribly modern...

I don't like it -but it isn't my place to say so Prof. She wanted to keep the same name as her DCs which thefowlandthepusseycat seems to find normal, and I suspect that it was mainly because it is a lovely dramatic name whereas my maiden name isn't very attractive, although I love it because it is very unusual.
I think that people haven't got much to worry about it names bother them so much!

Some interesting points of view here. The romantic notion of changing one's name and being Mrs persists. The 'its less hassle/ want to the whole family to have the same name' issue, well why not ask to have the female name as the family name? Beacuse most men would just not have it. Anybody want to say why? Male posters who don't get it and I am being petty or whatever, well of course you don't, nobody calls you by your wife's name do they?! Or asks if you are filling in a form if you are married or not which is what women are asked when asked to state Ms, Mrs or Miss. I get the point about my name being my dad's name. The term maiden name too, just so outdated. And my mum had her dad's name. But you have to start somewhere I guess. I don't have any good ideas to offer as to how you deal withit though! Yes its a choice, but one that only women have to make. And when did the term feminist become such a term of derision?

That's interesting piscesmoon, I suppose that is how my mil felt too. I guess that as my main reason for changing is to be the same as my dcs, that too would be my motivation for staying the same if faced with the same situation. But then of course if a woman in that situation intends having dcs with dh2 what then? I suppose my main point was that these choices are not just made on the basis of feminist/anti feminist principles, there is a lot more to it in some cases.

Am shocked that "Ms" could affect your credit-rating - could this really be true? Why would that be?

OP - you are a woman after my own heart and I agree with you entirely! Hate it!

Seeing as PIL get such a bad name on these threads and often come as second class grandparents behind the wife's parents, I think it is nice that they get the name! As my DH1 died young I am thrilled that he has a son with his name and would be very upset if a DIL comes along and wants to change it to hers (if she wants to retain her own that would be fine) but I think it would be insensitive to cut out DH1 when she never knew him and very upsetting to his parents.

But my parents simply refuse to accept that I did not change my name on marriage. They deliberately inform their siblings that I "use my maiden name" but am really Mrs X so all my Christmas cards are addressed to someone who doesn't exist.

Most amusing in a "where is Mike Leigh let's make a film about this dreadful family" kind of way.

Ah well, my family may be beserk, but at least, whatever happens in my life, I will never have to send one of THOSE all-user emails. You know the grim ones round the office that say "please note my name is now X not Y".

Incidentally, I think that MorrisZapp raised an important question in her post at 3.31pm, i.e. "When kids see that it is the norm for women to take a man's surname on marriage, what do they make of this, and how does it shape how they view gender roles?"

I think this goes to the root of the discussion. Personally I do not think that children would read a great deal into the mere fact that a woman decides to change her name - for the same reasons that I don't read much into it either ...

Women who change their names do it for a variety of reasons and, due to past convention, this would usually be to their DH's names. Historically this may have been because of the subjugation of women but that isn't true anymore. For the most part I suspect they do so now for reasons related to convenience, practicality and also identity but the reasons why they do it is irrelevant - the fact is that they choose to do so.

Children's views on gender roles are far more likely to be shaped by the way we behave: how their father treats their mother and vice versa, how their parents' different contributions to the household are valued, whether their mother is financially rewarded in a way equal to her male counterparts, whether their mother has the same opportunities/promotion prospects in the marketplace, if their mother chooses to stay at home whether that contribution is valued in society, whether DDs and DSs receive the same opportunities/education/encouragement, whether in fact their mother is subjugated/treated as a chattel etc etc.

These are obviously all big picture examples but I don't accept that the mere fact that a woman chooses to take her DH's name for whatever reason means that her children will believe that she is a doormat or her DH?s chattel.

I appreciate that the issue of name-changing is worth discussing if only from a consciousness-raising perspective but I do think that that the objectives of feminism (and by this I mean the fight for equality for women ? not what some people on this thread seem to think it means) can sometimes be thwarted by the focus on these kinds of issues. This is why I prefer to focus on the ?more important? issues such as those in the examples I gave and why I get really pissed off when women are so judgemental of each others? choices.

Oh and the "Mrs or Miss" thing - I used to say "pick one" but realised that was a bit mean on people who were short of time and pay and didn't really want to be on the phone to me.

I agree with the posters who say it is important to think about your name when you are getting married, and not just go with the status quo of taking the man's name. I had already chosen a name as a teenager..... I was adopted in my teens by a woman who had previously been married to a Czech. This name meant nothing (I never met her former husband) and I'm not Czech, plus it was difficult to spell. So I took her maiden name, which is a pretty standard British name, as all my relatives bar one are from Britain. We had a lot of different names on the mailbox for post, because of the other foster kids living with us. You get used to it, that people in one family have different surnames.

When married (far too young and stupid!) I took my husband's name because I too thought I was "marrying into my husband's family" and was caught up in the romance of that notion. However, we didn't have children (I suppose we could have "all had the same surname") and the marriage only lasted 5 years. In those 5 years, I began to hate the way I was treated in regard to my choice. Yes, we were young, but constantly calling me "Mrs Peter Husband's name" when of course my name is Jo made me feel like I had no identity of my own, and that they didn't realise I had a name of my own, and was not a man. I truly came to loathe the Christmas cards and parcels addressed to Mrs Peter Husband's name, as I had on several occasions over the years tried to explain as politely as possible that I did not like it. Oh, but it's tradition and the rest of the family have always done it! Well, I don't like it, could you please just call me Jo Husband's name? No, obviously not.

So I switched back to my maiden name - not of course the one given to me at birth by a father who was never part of my life - but one I had chosen. That is my identity. I like it. I chose it. I am now with a different partner, and we are planning on getting married next year. I will not be changing my name. At first he was surprised, but now he is fine with my decision. We discussed double-barrelling our names for our children (I'm pregnant with my first) but it seems a bit of a mouthful but will probably just go with his name which is short and easy to spell. I'm fine with that. I realise now I don't have to match the names of the rest of my family to be part of that family.

I don't really care if other women take their husband's name - it is totally their right and their choice. I do think people should be encouraged to think about the choices they make though, and not just follow tradition like sheep. You might get more than you bargained for, like I did. Has anyone on this thread admitted, "I took my husband's name and now I regret it?"

I don't think this discussion thwarts the wider debate, it is getting to the root of lots of issues. Isn't there an issue of equality when we are all faced with the same issues for decision? This is not trivial, lots of posters have described the thinking process behind their decisions to take one name or another.

I do recall when very young seeing letters addresed to my mum as Mrs and then my dad's first and second name and thinking how odd it was and frankly unfair. I also felt it was unfair that as the youngest female in the house I always got my dinner last....

tealight - surely you could say that the only true inequality here is that men are not able to adopt a different prefix on marriage or take their wife's name without going through deedpoll? I'm not sure why it is an inequality to be the gender fortunate enough to have the choice in the matter.

I don't think it is a trivial discussion, tealight, but I don't think that it is particularly relevant with regards to equality. A woman who changes her name is just as equal to her partner as a woman who doesn't change her name. Nor do I think that it is unfair that a woman's letters are addressed to her in her chosen name (although I appreciate that in your mum's day there may have been less choice in the matter but thankfully that is not the case any longer).

My point is that perfectly reasonable, independent women can come to different conclusions on the same question and we shouldn't be beating each other up over it or, as the OP suggests, blaming women who do change their name for the persistence of inequality.

A lot of people have mentioned taking the husband's name 'to be the same as the children'. Why is there an unspoken acceptance that children will have the man's surname?