to not want to be defined by my marital status or surname?

[tealight]

To be not at all surprised that women still strive to achieve equality when some/many/most (???)women in marriage take on men?s surnames and (in marriage or not) agree to their children taking the man?s surname? That is the way it used to be when women and children were literally, in the eyes of the law, men?s property. That is the basis o the tradition for fathers to give their daughters away. And why should my marital status be used to define me every time I fill out my personal details? Miss, Mrs, Ms? Men just have Mr. Yet many of us still subscribe to this. Why why why?????

ninagleams - Wow! The whole world is in a bubble, only you can see 'the truth'.

IMHO I'm not sure that the symbolism of the handing down of names through the male line is much to do with gender inequality or oppression of women anyway unless that's what you choose to see in it. There are various periods in history you could choose to examine for the various languages of families and names.

This 'ownership of women' and 'patriarchal society' most obviously makes me think of (stereotypically) victorian times. Actually there was a fair amount of women's lib went on in Victorian times. The 'rule of thumb' being an example. The rule of thumb is one of the early examples of domestic violence laws.

Is anyone really forced to take their husbands name now? I'm not sure, I would assume not. I'm not sure women ever really were forced directly but at certain times the advantages were many and the disadvantages could have been terrible.

The origin of giving children the fathers surname is, I suspect, because you can always identify maternal ownership of a child, given that it is grown inside the woman, therefore paternal ownership is asserted through the name. This makes sense before record keeping in identifying heirs and family groups.

In the beginning this was first names, it then developed into surnames. In the beginning there was no ownership of women and I suspect once the ownership of women part developed that was more to do with legitimisation of children and inheritance for women and children who have always tended to live longer than men if they did not die in childbirth.

If you look at surnames and prefixes as symbols of male oppression of women the clear thing to do is either choose your own name or to only go by a first name surely?

GAH I have not given my opinion on the pay gap, will you please stop putting words in my mouth. I said the statistic you quoted did not give the full picture. THAT. IS. ALL. It doesn't, the office of national statistics even says that themselves.

ninagleams - maybe YOUR Dad had more control, maybe yYOUR DH/DP has more control, but that is not the case in my life. Maybe YOU lived in a bubble (like some do) but you know bugger all about me so don;t you dare tell me what my opinions should be or how my changing my name is damagin to women in gerenal and my daughters.

FWIW my mum has been the main breadwinner in her relationship for as long as I can remember. At the moment in my relationship DH is the main earner. That is becasue I chose to have children and unfortunatley no matter how many women keep their name men are never going to be able to get pregnant and give birth!

However that could all change in a few years time, I could become the main earner (DH can;t wait!)

And I could also choose to leave a familty behind and not pay maintenance if I wanted to.

You keep going on about someone saying that there is no pay gap THAT IS NOT WHAT WAS SAID!!!!!! I believe what was said is that it isn't as simple as that and it isn't.

I feel very sorry for you - you've obviously been opressed by the big bad 'man', but don;t push your views on the rest of us .

Hi Brokkenharted,

I believe I did mention how we dealt with it in my household. It was left somewhat to chance as we agreed that is baby no 1 was a girl she and all subsequent children would have my name and if a boy then he and all subsequent children would have their fathers name.

In a way this was a concession to the status quo - personally I just wanted them to have my name. But I knew DH was worried about it and also his family's reaction to the whole deal. Not without justification. This way in was in the hands of chance. Though in fact we specifically didn't ask to know the gender of the baby in any scans & I did keep asking DH if he was OK with it right up until the papers were signed (because you know I do love him and schisms are best dealt with before deed polls are involved! Changing childrens names is a lot more involved than changing ones own in adulthood).

The one thing I would say is that for everyone who says names don't signify anything to anyone outside the personal decision making zone they should be aware that our doing the unusual thing did cause quite a bit of confusion and upset. The idea that people don't give two figs about such things is certainly not true in my case. Not only with family members etc, with whom one could say my own interaction has an influence, but also with randomish members of the public like hospital staff and Registrars.

And DH was startled by his own reaction when confronted with paperwork etc. I know he mentally double-barrells the name in the sense that he probably always refers to both children by either their first name or their full with-middle names (his surname is their middle name).

Yes yes I know this is just my personal experience but at least it demonstrates that one is not currently able to just choose a name one wants and then use it without continuing resistance over a fairly long period (DD is 4). This contrasts, again in my own experience, of friends marriages at least, with the fairly swift acceptance of name change where there is a brief gotcha-period of adjustment in peoples contact lists and all moves on. Ho hum I'm not sure how it is possible to plunder anything but ones own experience.

So sure, in the Far East the name thing hasn't made things perfect. Don't think anyone is suggesting that if people simply didn't change their names suddenly the whole world would be miraculously transformed. It is just a small incremental thing that some of us feel has value.

Niga Are you that unaware that you don't understand what you say (and how you say it) IMPLIES?

I am offended by your implications. You may think we are not paying attention but as far as i see it you can only see in one direction. I am not saying that a pay gap does not exist but I dont think it is a majority view that women are at all beneath men. There will ALWAYS be those that want to think like that. You can not and will not stop that no matter what you do. It is the fact that sisters clearly have no respect for each others choices and opinions. It is nice that you think you are more intelligent and aware of the world than the rest of us. If it makes you feel good.

LovelyKay - I think that was a GREAT way to do it, if name keeping is what you chose to do. Really nice and fair.

You should have just said that all girls got yours and all guys got his. Would puzzle a few that siblings had diff surnames I love it.

LovelyKay, I think the idea you and your DH came up with is good and I agree that it should have been easier for you to do this. You are right, it takes a long time for peoples attitudes to change but I think we are getting there. I personlayy don;t think that by taking DH name I become his property, if that is the case then you giving your children your name makes them your property - what's the difference.

When our children are gettign married I hope this whole name thing won;t be an issue - whether you choose to keep or change your name. I hope that our children's choices are respected and accepted.

What offends me is that I have been told on this thread (not neccessarily by you) that by me changing my name I am in effect selling out and I stronlgy disagree with that.

It has all got very heated (me included) and things have been said that maybe shouldn;t have been. All I ask for is my decision based on whatever factors are respected as my choice.

I'm pretty sure that I would get totally flamed if I said that every mother shoudl breastfeed becasue thats what I believe is right and we all know for a fact that BM is better than F - that would be unreasonable of me. Sure I can have my views and I can suggest to someone that BF is best and explain all the advantages but I should never make someone else feel bad about her decision. We can talk about our own experiences but by putting other people down for not agreeing with you is jsut being childish, whats next, sticking our fingers in our ears and going na na na na na, I can;t hear you!

Apologies for appalling spelling! Mumsnet - can we have spell check for us lazy typers please!

Hi curiosity. Those dts will be on their way soon if you keep this up!

I'm amazed at this zeal shown on this thread over name-changing (though have to admit not to have read the whole thing). Being a W, I WANTED to change my name to DH's - a C (but that's a whole other thread that has recently been covered - the advantages of being in the top half of the alphabet). When I told them in the bank they just smiled and said "We don't do that here". True enough, you keep your maiden name forever in Belgium. As for your children finding it odd (a point made a few pages back), they don't because it's the norm.

Also, the Miss/Mrs thing also goes on age not marital status so I'm usually called Mme W or Mrs W if I'm being written/spoken to by a Belgian in English (which is slightly odd as it sounds like my mum). In English circles though I'm Mrs C. I don't care either way to be honest. I have both on my passport but that's purely to avoid confusion if I have to show two pieces of ID.

hi, longtime!

I have never said or meant that names don't signify things to other people though lovelykay what I was saying originally is that they definitely do, but that what they signify to others reflects on that person rather than you and doesn't actually change your decision about your names or your definition of yourself.

In other words if a friend called you mrs x when you had chosen ms y then you will still call yourself ms y and the reason they have called you mrs x may have been because they have chosen to call themself mrs z. Just like if they call you dc's mum it may be because that is what is relevant to them at the time i.e. because you are in the playground dropping off dcs or because that is where they know you from. It doesn't mean you define yourself as 'dc's mum'.

BrokkenHarted, I think someone a few pages up did answer your question (perhaps edam or seeker?). They said (which I agree with) something like that the issue re what the children and their children's children do etc etc is irrelevant because those children will simply decide to do what they want to do. Just like we decide to do what we want to do. The point is that taking the DH's name shouldn't be automatic (again, something I agree with).

Goodness me the thing I found most extraordinary about all this was the amount of anger people felt. Surely you have come across people before who do not share your world view or believe the same beliefs. Do you always take such umbrage?

I fail to see why so many people have got so upset by the views of someone whose views they do not respect.

Sorry Brokkanharted I think we disagree fundamentally about pretty much everything about this topic (judging purely from the views expressed in your post). I probably think I am right and you are wrong about loads of things. But since the same applies vice versa iyswim well....

I would be very disappointed if my children grew up thinking that the current status quo was the way to go. I would be hugely disappointed if the thought of "all girls got yours and all guys got his" did not make them question the mindset of the person who said it. We would doubtless dislike each other a lot in person. But we are not meeting in person and we are talking here on the interweb about potential ways we can all behave in the future. We don't need to agree.

I hope I have stayed pretty calm and for the life of me I cannot understand why the views of someone I disagree with root and branch should make me ill-mannered and aggressive.

I mean if we were down the pub & tanked maybe, but then we wouldn't be, would we?

stillstanding - the name change is not automatic though, you do have to choose and go to considerable effort to change your name with service providers and official offices. It's not actually assumed that you will. Am I talking us round in a circle? Is this not what you were meaning in your last post?

need bed!

Yes they will. It was more a question that i wanted to know from the 'you are wrong for taking your DH's name' people that i wanted the answer from. More of a, assuming everyone did what you thought 'was right', question.

was that to me lovelykay?

I've only taken umbrage when people have regurgitated things I've said incorrectly. I don't really want to allow that because people coming to the thread might just assume I had said those things. The rest is just thinking and pregnant sieve-brain exercise!

I for one do not have a problem with anyone expressing a different point of view to be, life would be very dull if we all thought the same way.

The problem I have is that some name keepers (not all) have been of the opinion that I am letting the side down by changing my name and that I have become a little lady nothing more than DH possession, that I can;t possibly for one second have made this decision by myself, that I only did it because its the norm and I am happy for women to be viewed as not equals. That is why I am angry. You have your views and i have mine. I am not asking you to change your name or insulting you so I ask again, why is it OK to insult me?

I don't really like being told what I should or shouldn't do or what I think or don't think or the reasons why I've done or thought something by someone on the interweb either actually. Not when it's written down and other people can use it to beat me with! I felt like ninagleams was doing that to me rather a lot and I guess that did make me annoyed.

"Then, as I imagined you probably would, you overlooked that completely so in response, having revealed something quite personal about myself and something that I feel formed so very much of me and having had it wilfully ignored I am going to flatly refuse to engage with any of you on this issue anymore."

Ninagleams, you're obviously upset and I'm sorry about that but you aren't reading my posts properly and I can't let what you said lie. I did not wilfully ignore your post - I read it very carefully and found your argument passionate and could see that name-keeping is a deeply personal issue for you. Our names are in fact very personal for all of us. I specifically acknowledged that when I said "You obviously feel passionately about this - keeping the name that you were given is clearly something you place a great deal of meaning in not only symbolically but also because your identity is strongly attached to that name. I respect that." But I then went on to say that it was not the same for me. That should be perfectly acceptable to you.

As for living in a bubble, I can assure you that I most certainly do not. That is not the same as saying that I am not shaped by my environment and circumstances and the people around me (which I obviously am) but saying I live in a bubble implies that I am closed to others' circumstances and views which is not the case. I'm assuming you do not think that you live in a bubble either.

Last post was to stillstanding

LovelyKay - that bit was a joke. Y'know, being a bit silly? I said i liked what you chose to do.

You are not being offended though LovelyKay in the same way that i feel i am. I usualy stay calm in debates. I have never been offended like this though. If you would chose not to get on with me in RL then fine and fair enough but i am not a 'doesn't get one with x, y and z' person.

Your last post was very aggressive, calm but aggressive all the same.

I suppose curiosity that I don't feel we live in quite such an individual 'divorced' fashion. It is an endless swirl of interaction. When people make life awkward or difficult for me then that changes my life. Obviously it doesn't materially alter my actual name but it does alter my view of myself.

I am a bolshy bugger partly because others make me so. Because they tell me to think my thoughts quietly in case they offend others and because it shows them to me in a new light and erodes my sense of common humanity. I'd rather they didn't.

I genuinely feel that women changing their names on marriage is a symptom of wider issues in society. I do feel it merits consideration. I do not feel it will cure famine in the third world but neither does anyone else. I believe in society despite being a reluctant participant at times. I want to make a difference and I am genuinely pleased that my DH, at first wary of the whole thing, is now totally with me on this having experienced the same issues that it provoked.

A serous question LovelyKay - do you not feel that things have already improved? The fact that women can keep their name, that men can change their name.

Yes I realise that in some circles there are raised eybrows, but how does a name keeper insulting a name changer help?

I know there are people out there who can't get to grips with the whole name thing and whatever you want to be known as will still refer to you as Mrs hisfirstname hissurname but I'm pretty certain that happens less frequently now. I'm sure there are some mischieveous in laws out there who will do it on purpose to irritate and they are wrong for doing so. But by saying all women should keep their name or implying that we are ignorant and don;t know whats good for us - isn't that just as oppressive?

LKay, what some of us are so upset about is what your opinion says about us that have not kept our names.

I CHOSE to take hubbys name. I THOUGHT about it and WANT to have his name. I WANT my kids to have his name so that in a society where women are given mostly all parental rights, and men so few, my kids know that they are as much a part of him than of me. I WANT to have his surname so that we all have the same surname because we are one unit and it SYMBOLISES that.

If that means that i am dropping the baton and letting down women everywhere I am MORE than happy with that.

Ah but not ill-mannered and aggressive! Aggression is a useful thing - something we all know surely?

It is the out and out anger or even the passive-aggressive stuff going around (you know 'I changed my name because I really love my husband' etc) that leaves me exasperated.

People have been spitting tacks on here.

Actually that's the bit I like and why I keep coming back! Perhaps it fills an aching void in me? One crying out for weird fractured logic and moral outrage.

The world isn't perfectly fair. It NEVER will be.

Women don't have all their rights but you so convieniently forget the lack of rights men have when it comes to children and that is a WAY bigger issue in my opinion than anything we are still not allowed.

I absolutely understand what is upsetting you. I just cannot get why you seem unable to handle the fact that someone disagrees with you. And will continue to disagree with you however many times you repeat your points.

Really am amazed that you manage if this is your reaction to someone taking a differing view. Did you genuinely not know that some people felt this way about the issue?