to not want to be defined by my marital status or surname?

[tealight]

To be not at all surprised that women still strive to achieve equality when some/many/most (???)women in marriage take on men?s surnames and (in marriage or not) agree to their children taking the man?s surname? That is the way it used to be when women and children were literally, in the eyes of the law, men?s property. That is the basis o the tradition for fathers to give their daughters away. And why should my marital status be used to define me every time I fill out my personal details? Miss, Mrs, Ms? Men just have Mr. Yet many of us still subscribe to this. Why why why?????

I know lots of people who have just kept their own name-it doesn't matter in the least. I only find it annoying if they make a great fuss about it and go on about 'being the property of a man'. I hate being called Ms, was happy to change my name and don't think it is important or significant. I don't see why it needs comment either way.

piscesmoon. That is absolutely fine. I and, apparently, some others feel that it does merit some comment. That's why we're here I am guessing?

I have rather lost the point of the thread-I have been on it too long! My only point is that the name is unimportant-people should do what they like -quietly- and not tell others what they should do or think.

we married. we became a unit together. we had children. together we are all one unit.

Ergo, one surname - We are the 'Bergens'

"people should do what they like -quietly- and not tell others what they should do or think. "

So telling people to be quiet is not telling others what to do or think!

I have spent a good deal of my life being told to be quiet, go with the flow and not rock the boat. Maybe if a person wants to effect a change in society, even a teeny weeny inconsequential fluffy one like their own naming convention within their family, they might want to consider/debate/reflect on their thoughts in public? Being quiet about things is not historically terrifically effective in the main.

There are, of course, exceptions. But I'm not exceptional, I favour being a little bit loud.

"The (so-called) feminist arguments for this being an issue re language or equality don't hold much water."

Does the fact that I'm the child of a two name household hold any water with you? That I think it made a significant impact on the way that I see the world, made me aware of social inequalities at a young age and particularly of the gender power gap that I still think is apparent from early childhood. At the age of 7 I was aware of the implications inherent in God being male. I understood that girls were not meant to be aggressive and that it was important to assert myself because of that expectation and I also knew that people get confused by simple information when it doesn't follow the path that they expect prior to receiving that information. I found having my mother's name was an advantage and never a bad thing. Language is symbolic but what was really apparent was that other people found a movement away from the expected symbolism quite shocking.

It is an issue. Until you have experienced life outside a bubble you don't understand the expectation involved in naming wives and children and it is the expectation, the presumption of that male priority, the status conveyed by that presumption of priority over women that is indicative of something dark in our shared histories. I know that because that is the reality that I grew up with. You don't have to try to understand that, in a sense it's best that you don't because you actively chose not to break that bubble but if there is anything that allows gender stereotyping to continue, that suggests to every little girl that men have more power than women it's the fact, not the assumption but the fact that most of the respected women in their lives gave their names away. The reason it's dangerous is because it is that symbolic, it is that everyday, it is romantic and it is expected. Perhaps the idea that we are most influenced by our immediate reality for the first 5 years of our lives isn't significant to you but it is to me and in the first 5 years most children discover that mother's change for father's, that everyone in the house is named for dad and that's a small, worthless fight? Maybe for you it is.

What??????? My girls certainly don;t think their dad has more power than me - in fact they tell everyone I am the boss in this house, we all have to do what mummy says!

I really don't care how many names you have in your house. Really I couldn't give a shit. What I do give a shit about is you patronising me because I chose one name over another.

Just because you experienced one thing in your life does not mean everyone else has had that same experience.

I am not asking anyone to be quiet or tell them what they shoudl think, I am asking you to respect my wishes and choices as I respect yours. No where I have belittled you for those choices yet I am still belittled for mine.

Sounds an interesting set of thoughts for a seven year old.

At about that age I was certainly screaming and shouting for what I wanted (I'm the youngest of four, and was a bolshy little girl). Oh, and I had figured out that my dad had a much more interesting life than my mother and that he was the role model for me. Still is in may ways.

But then even though my mother did take my father's name, and had us all brought up as Catholics (my father is a Catholic, my mum CoE) she wasn't very traditional in many ways, for example we had two Greenham Common ladies who stayed with us for quite a while (my parents house has a small flat as a part of it). So I was introduced to the idea of lesbians quite young, as well as activism. I have to admit that as children we found at least one of the ladies slightly scary.

I think it is foolish to think that if someone has not chosen exactly the same battles as you they don't have strong opinions and beliefs and that those beliefs and opinions might not be feminist. It's a broad church.

Oooooooooh. OK ninagleams Thank you for pointing out your life experience is fact in all cases. I was so terribly unaware.

I thought my dad had changed a lot for my mum but CLEARLY you say that isn't the case and are therefore TOTALLY right.

I chose my husbands surname because, lets face it, I am a muppet. A disgrace of a woman. In actual fact, dare I even call myself a woman?? Maybe I should not as only women with your opinions deserve such a title. I am simply a man's slave and have disgraced women everywhere for CHOSING to take my husbands (oh sorry, I mean MASTER'S) surname!

Do you have any idea what you are saying about disgraces such as me? Seen as you are so aware of symbolism and how things come across to others and consequences.

I have NEVER been so offended.

How dare you or any other woman tell me how i should and should not act? What i should and should not chose to do?

This is still going on?

In the Orient, as I stated above (but I am routinely ignored here, and am used to it), women do NOT change their name to their husband's upon marriage. This certainly does not reflect an egalitarian attitude towards the sexes - in fact, women's rights have a LONG way to go to reach western standards. Thus, this name this is overstated.

I meant to say thing, not this

Ninagleams, please don't make assumptions or patronising comments about the "bubble" that I grew up in and I will try to extend you the same courtesy.

My parents were ardent feminists and, like you, I was also brought up to believe in those principles and I relate to a lot of the things you describe in your post - I felt the same way as a child and I still do.

In answer to your question, the mere fact that you grew up in a two name household does not influence me particularly. For reasons I outlined many pages ago I don't think that two-names is a hugely significant factor in the way we shape our children's views on gender roles. There are far more (imo) significant things that we can do to shape those views. The fact that a person is brought up in a two-name household doesn't mean that they will then appreciate that men are equal to women just as the fact that a person is brought up in a one-name household doesn't mean that they will believe men are superior to women. Many, many other factors will shape those views and I prefer to focus on those.

Probably we would agree on a lot of those other factors but this thread has highlighted the difference between us on the emphasis to be placed on name-keeping. You obviously feel passionately about this - keeping the name that you were given is clearly something you place a great deal of meaning in not only symbolically but also because your identity is strongly attached to that name. I respect that. I just don't feel the same way. This doesn't mean that my children are not going to grow up to know that I am their father's equal. I assure you that they will.

Well I have read every comment and thought a bit more about what I said waaaay back up the thread.

As I have said already DW chose to take my surname and am honoured she did. She chose to do so of her own free will and I would have been happy for her to keep her surname, or would have double barreled mine and hers.

She and I disliked the way she was sometimes referred to as Mrs A BetaDad which did make me feel like other people saw her as my possession which she is not. It was a small part of the reason we recently both changed out titles on bank accounts etc to Dr so now we are both Dr BetaDad.

BrokkenHarted - I thought the sentiments in your posts were quite lovely. You do sound very secure and happy and clearly DH respects you as an equal. Some will no doubt say I am expressing male privelage or patriachy by saying that but, if I interpret correctly what you are saying, being formally married to your DH, and changing your name signifies something very personal and special to you. " I AM his. Likewise he IS mine. No one elses. That doesn't mean that i stop being 'me'. I feel exactly the same about my marriage and DW definitely my equal but still a woman and me a man and we enjoy those differences too.

I'm not ignoring you, SofaQueen. I didn't know that about the Orient - very interesting.

Did you know that Islam requires that Muslim women do not change their family name upon marriage? Very right-on fiesty feminist stuff that or ... er, is it?!

My mother was equal in the parnership. I would say my grandmother was the boss! The name signifies nothing whatsoever! It is a mere convenience. I happen to like the fact that we all have the same name-I don't expect my DCs to read anything into it.

Thank you ABetaDad

About name changing. To those who think women should keep their names? What about your children? Do they get double-barreled?

If 'yes' then what about there children? How many names would there be only a few generations away?

If 'no', who's surname do they take?
-If yours, why do you automatically give the surname? Is that not doing the same as what you see happens when women take the mans name?
-If his, is that not back to square one and your problem with it all?

I am genuinely asking here.

Their not there. cringe

Sofaqueen - sorry of you feel ignored - very interesting point and pretty much what I have been saying the name has nothing to do with equality.

However I am aware that it does mean somethng to some people, luckily we live in a society where we are able to make a choice not told what we have to call ourselves.

'By stillstanding Thu 22-Oct-09 18:33:39 Add a message | Report post | Contact poster
Aaah come on, curiosity!

Sure, we can't know whether most name changes are to the husband's name but don't you think that we can assume that that is the case? My personal experience certainly supports that ... is yours very different?'

stillstanding - that was my very point actually. Ermintrude presented it as fact. I said I agreed it was probably true but it should be recognised as an educated guess rather than a known fact.

I was also trying to point out that it is likely that people change their names in various ways. I'm not sure I know for sure which parts any of my married friends have changed i.e. passports, bank accounts, bills and which they haven't. My friends would know I felt strongly that I wanted my husband's name but I (guessing that legal name is the one on your passport) haven't changed my passport or some of my bills. What does that make me in terms of the law, name changer or name keeper?

Any name keeper fancy answering my question? I would really like to know ^^

NeedaNewName/stillstanding ageeing with everything you have said too. My DW would be bemused and somewhat insulted if anyone told her she was somehow betraying feminism by taking my surname. Her choice of name has nothing to do with equality.

ABetaDad - DH laughed whn I told him about this thread. He too was pleased I took his name but wouldn;t have been upset if I hadn't.

Actually come to think of it, I never really asked him if it was OK that I took his name. Maybe he doesn;t like it and I've offended him by stealing his identity, this could be a whole new issue

again i dont mean to nag but ANYONE fancy answering my question? - was thinking about it earlier and am a 'stay awake and think about it' person :P

sorry broken - what question?

I'm not patronising you, this is nothing to do with my parents or your parents being feminists. You wanted to know why it's important so I told you from the perspective of a child rather than an adult feminist why it was important to me and why words meant something. Then, as I imagined you probably would, you overlooked that completely so in response, having revealed something quite personal about myself and something that I feel formed so very much of me and having had it wilfully ignored I am going to flatly refuse to engage with any of you on this issue anymore. You did grow up in a bubble, not a big bubble but it's the bubble of being in the majority. All of us live in some kind of bubble whether it's being white, having a parent's love... it's not an insult.

For those of you saying things like "My girls certainly don;t think their dad has more power than me". Why not? HE DOES. He has the power to automatically command more pay in the workplace than any woman, he has the power to leave a family behind and never get hit up for maintenance if he leaves! This is exactly what I'm talking about.

"I had figured out that my dad had a much more interesting life than my mother and that he was the role model for me"

Well... dude that's awful.

Brokkenharted, I think that both you and curiosity live in a world in which women are not the slightest bit oppressed. One of you doesn't believe in the pay gap, god knows if you think it exists or not. As such it is unimportant to me if you're offended or not because if you really have those views than you're not slaves to your husbands, you're living with blinkers on and you need to take a good look around you. You're offended by nothing, I've said nothing that should offend you except that I disagree with you. I haven't even bloody said that you shouldn't change your name for god's sake. Not once. Well now you can be offended because I told you I think you're not paying attention to what's going on around you properly. Why don't you get huffy about that?

So I'm done. I'm not talking about this anymore because really if that's the reaction to someone simply answering someone's point and saying shit all that's controversial I really can't be arsed. Take comfort that you lot really aren't alone.