to be annoyed by namby (ineffectual) middle class parents?

[ElenorRigby]

I have started to bring the kids to a play area not far away in quite a well to do part of the city.

I was quite shocked to find really bad brat behaviour from children of middle class parents.

Picture: Tarquin, Tasha or whoever being shitty to their parents, other children, other parents.

Then Tarquin/Tasha's parents limply say something like "Oh dear, that's not very nice" "Please don't be like that" or so on

Their kids of course carry on as usual

horatia & hugo!

sounds like a joyce grenfill (sp) thingy.

yep, that's what my friends are like. they even shield the kids' eyes if there's a tv on near them, in case the harmful rays infect them.

btw, ormirian, after years of teaching i came to the conclusion that the parents who made an effort usually got through eventually even with the strongest willed kids. it's the parents who just don't seem to bother, who think it's good to let kids express themselves, even at the expense of all others around them, that i'm a bit about

What is unconditional parenting?
Seriously I have no real idea what this is or how you would go about it but I hear it on here all the time and have always wondered?

Well that's OK then No-one could say we didn't bother with DS#2. We bother about him all time atm. Now the other 2 ....we never bother with them. DS#2 doesn't leave us the time TBH......

unconditional parenting is a theory that you should show your kids you love them no matter what all the time.

however, some parents see this as meaning that you therefore don't need to try to adjust their behaviour. it think tha's a misreading of the system (but am no expert). after all, you can love your kid, no matter what, and still teach them not to scream/throw/hit etc. i mean, you teach them to walk, get dressed, eat, so why not throw ina f ew social skills to make them happier while yo're at it?

sadly, our friends seem to have taken it to a new level. we no longer live near them, but when we meet up, dd often runs away crying from their son.

But what if they are destroying a display in a garden centre (DD2 this morning) or smacking their sister repeatedly about the head? (DD1 about half an hour ago)

How can you possibly show that you love them at the same time as getting them to stop doing these things immediately (ie before you have to pay for alot of damaged goods or someone gets hurt?)
No child will feel very happy when they are being told not to do someting they want to do will they?And surely if you are telling your child off its not possible at the very same time to tell them you love them as wouldnt that detract from what you are talking about? (but of course they should know you love them when you are not telling them off iyswim-it should be said to them and demonstrated at regular intervals?)

Oh I see.Thats the crux of the issue.

I think that ideally you stop them/take them away. Tell them off. Then when it's calmer tell them that you love them but you don't like what they are doing. I guess. Sounds good in theory .....

Well I am a firm believer in 'good' but conditonal parenting. It goes like this.

The conditions of living in this house for both adults and children are that you behave in a civilised manner, you do not hit anyone and you work hard. IF you do not want to do that then you may withdraw from contact with the family, eat alone and be alone. The choice is yours but you will always be welcome to rejoin the family.

The naughty step is a very early lesson in that for children - and thankfully something we have hardly ever had cause to use.

yes, and you shouldn't lose your temper, but stay calm & controlled at all times. you remove/prevent the behaviour, then tell them you love them but they can't ...

because, of course, it's not the least bit annoying if they start kicking & screaming. you still feel that parental rush of love as you carry them out of the supermarket whilst they pull your hair!

still, am surprised that op thought that mc kids would have better parenting than others. really don't think level of parental involvement is related to whether you wear boden or not)

Totally agree with MorrisZapp - I'd rather hear someone trying to argue gently with a child than screaming abuse at them.

Sure, some people go too far in not disciplining their children - but I'm fairly certain that all children can be naughty/unpleasant/disobedient sometimes, even those belonging to the MNers who think that they have brought up perfectly behaved children by using their non-MC tough but fair approach.

And ElenorRigby: among the upper middle classes, Tarquin and Tasha are not acceptable names.

I didn't think that anyone was saying that all mc parents are namby-pamby and ineffectual. But I do stand by what I said earlier, that there is one strand of over-indulgent parenting - exemplified by cooing 'Maximilien is soooo creative' as he creates a mural in wax crayon on your wallpaper - that seems to be the preserve of a certain type of mc parent who has read the books and (mis)interpreted them to mean that the child must have complete liberty at all times and any attempt to set any kind of boundary will blight the child's life for ever.

But I agree too that no one class (if we must use that term) has the monopoly on good or bad parenting.

And, it was a couple of pages ago but, Pagwatch, I am a Brown Owl and am horrified that your son was duffed up by a pack of Brownies. That isn't the standard of behaviour we expect from Brownies - we're very big on consideration for others.

Bleh ' it's just that individuals who went to public schools etc. are taught to be so damned arrogant and blind to their own faults, that they think they can get away with anything.'

Yes they definitely teach that to my children. I see it everyday.

In my line of work I meet people across the social spectrum and I have to mostly agree with you..........

The further out of London you go the better behaved the kids - 'don't do that darling' doesnt' work! In a deprived area the kids are well behaved at a young age cos they get a clip around the ear! I wonder if this reverses in the teenage years! Obviously not all kids/parents are like this.

A friend of my is a children's entertainer in London and I hear some shocking bad behaviour stories.

btw, ormirian, after years of teaching i came to the conclusion that the parents who made an effort usually got through eventually even with the strongest willed kids

agreed - it's people that don't try that i am judgey about.

Just to clarify...
I am well used to mixing with children/parents in socially deprived areas. But in areas like that the bad influences can be really toxic. DP and I want the best for the children, we want to protect them.
My opening post was not about slagging off middle class parents and their children.
It was about expecting to find children with good manners in a class/area I thought I would find them. Then my shock and disappointment about the behaviour of children who I had anticipated would be decent was really crappy.

I think also that this unconditional parenting lark is done purely for the parents' egos and lack of self-confidence, not necessarily because parents believe it is right for the children. I cannot believe that any parent is so blinkered (actually I can) to see that their ineffectual parenting skills are having zero effect on their child's behaviour.

In many social circles (I noticed it a lot when I lived in Bristol actually alexfs, maybe it is more of a city phenomenon) it is very much the 'done thing' to use unconditional parenting... I think parents see themselves as quite cool and right-on to loudly bray, 'kind hands darling,' and 'we don't behave unacceptably sweetie' etc whilst said darling/sweetie is behaving like a little shitbag.

In some ways it's not really surprising - there's little sense of decency or moral guidance for parents to generally aspire to these days, and there's a lot of social pressure to live this perfect lifestyle. I very much think that this sense of misplaced priorities is being reflected in this method of parenting.

Why are some people so afraid to be firm with their children? What is so wrong with 'falling out' with them? Nothing IMO - There is nothing wrong with your child not liking you for a few hours/days/whatever. Fgs, it's what children do.

I cannot understand these parents that charge their children with the responsibility of being their friends. I see my role as a parent as a really serious challenge and instilling values plus self-confidence at the same time as encouraging empathy and loving behaviour is more about parenting and guiding rather than be-friending. I hope that through life my children will make their own friends. One day they may want to fly away from me to the other side of the world, and believe me my heart will break on the day they do, but I know I have to guide them towards independence and self-resilience. If they still love me enough to want to hang around, despite me being a tough mummy as they've grown up, then that's fantastic.

You speak a lot of good sense Bolter. It seems to me that you are right that parents are trying to be friends to their kids, and in so doing they are also trying to "adultise" them (trying to find opposite of word infantilise). They are trying to reason with creatures who are barely toilet trained ("kind hands Hugo")- a simple "no" would suffice, but somewhere along the line we got saying "no" confused with criticising our kids, which is of course verboten for their dreaded SELF-ESTEEM! In fact we put their self-esteem above all else. Kindness to others used to come first, didn't it?

For anyone worrying that being firm with children (re. manners, kindness etc) will give them less 'self-confidence' than their peers... I think you may be confusing self-confidence with bravado. Bolter is spot-on.

Absolutely sickof, (and thanks for the compliment, not sure that I always do !), we're all so scared about knocking our children's self esteem! What on earth did the majority of parents in the 60's and 70's do to warrant such an obsession among their offspring?!

I am just as conscious as the next parent, I had quite a controlling mother (with whom who I actually happen to have a great relationship) so I do worry about passing down my issues to my children, and yes you've guessed it, a lot of them centre upon self-esteem.

But surely it is better to give children a firm foundation of self-discipline and moral strength than a few namby-pamby, confusing utterings?

Thanks independiente. Blustering bravado is IMO the absolute opposite of quiet inner resilience and self-belief.

Quite. The ability to step on others to get your own way is NOT self-esteem, either in children or in adults. I think kindness is such an underrated quality, and yet one that positively radiates self-esteem.

Can you all come here and give me advice please?

Indipendiente I so agree!

ShriekingHarpy (great name by the way) - Yep. That's right there with Maximilien and his creativity. And presumably RadishBoy is going to the allotment with his mother or other adult who is present while he digs for victory and could, if they chose, stop him doing it? Quite extraordinary. I do hope that in 10 years time he isn't coming home with someone else's TV.