to by annoyed at this NCT antenatal group

[birthstoryvisit]

Ok, I know I'm being unreasonable, that's why I've name changed, but I need to get this off my chest.

My DS is three months' old. Yesterday, I went back to my old NCT teacher's class to give my birth story (long, epidural, ventouse, lots of stiches). A friend with a wonderful birth (waterbirth, soft lights) went too.

They were horrid to me. Did not ask me one question about my labour (I thought that they'd want to know what some of the interventions were really like). Their basic attitude was "You failed to have a natural labour. I do not need to talk to you because my labour will not be like that. I am coming to classes and will have a lovely, natural birth with maybe a bit of gas and air. You are a failure." They spent their whole time asking my friend about her ante natal yoga and whether it was the raspberry leaf tea that ensured the quick labour.

This isn't just me. The first thing my friend said when we left was "goodness, they were a bit judgy weren't they?". I get it, they're first time mums and in denial, but am I being unreasonable to hope that at least one of them has a long labour and needs an epidural?(I know I am really ). I gave up part of my weekend to try and be helpful. Grrr, won't be doing that again.

hope you told them that you can 'birth plan' as much as you like but it won't necessarily turn out like that

understand your annoyance.

my NCT teacher was amazing - told us about all possible outcomes, all pain relief available, made it very clear that the only real goal was to get baby out as painlessly as possible. I think she teaches NHS classes too, but she wasn't at all judgy. she had experienced it all too
(I think - she'd certainly had epidural, pethidine, gas and air, twins - mother of 5!) and is a doula in her little spare time.

the other two women in my group were lovely too. although weirdly, of the three of us, 1 did nothing except sit in front of the tv for 6 weeks before her baby arrived (natural birth, 6 hr labour, gas and air), 1 did every aquanatal/yoga class going (emcs due to positioning of baby) and 1 (me) walked every day, took raspberry leaf fucking tea, clary sage baths etc etc, had a 65 hour labour, with every pain relief going, including a failed epidural - ended up with forceps delivery, episiotomy, and 2nd degree tear. however, I was aware of what was happening, and was able to make innformed decisions (as was DP) due to our ante natal classes. our NCT teacher has congratulated all 3 of us and said if we want to talk about our experiences at all, to call her.

so I guess some teachers and some groups are just better/less judgy than otrhers. I can't fault my teacher at all.

Sabire

1. Yes - Being absolutely and utterly rigid about ANY birth plan is silly - you can't force a baby to arrive according to plan. So for someone absolutely determined to have their baby in a hospital, the baby could well have other plans and arrive too quickly to get there.
2. I was not saying that WANTING a home water birth is stupid. It was the fact that her baby was wedged solid, and she became too exhausted to push, and she STILL refused to go to hospital that was stupid. At some point, the health of your baby has to become paramount. His arm was dislocated because of the position he was stuck in and her insisting on trying to push him out. 3)and before you accuse me of saying people should just trot along with doctors' policies, I don't believe that either. Hospital policy is for mums to be induced after 14 days post term. I opted for daily monitoring. However, if the monitoring had shown a MEDICAL NECESSITY to be induced/have a section, I would have agreed, because I'd rather take those measures and have a healthy baby, than risk it all going wrong.

When I first contacted NCT, they were fantastically precious and snooty. I am very glad I didn't go down that path. Nothing more to add.

YANBU

This made me laugh actually. I remember going to see the labour ward for the 1st one and when they flipped the stirrups up into position I thought 'oh I am so not going to need those'.
Anyway you can guess what happened. Stirrups, ventouse, stitches - the works!

They are in denial. Go back again once a few more have had theirs and they'll be gnashing to tell you their horror story. I don't think they meant to be unkind more that they just can't entertain anything other than the perfect birth.

silent I managed to avoid all things NCT for the same reasons.

There was always an alternative so no they don't have a monopoly.

My NHS antenatal class was diabolical odd.
The HV leading the class was an ex-MW and has some interesting opinions.

Dads evening (yes just one evening out of the course) consisted of the couples sitting in a semi-circle and the dads being told to ask questions. One asked 'how can I help my DW during labour' - the answer was 'you can carry her bags and keep out of the MWs way'.

We were also told that the MW attending us would probably have had a bad day, and not to mind if she was rude distracted. Apparently, it was very likely that a birth earlier in the day would have gone wrong and that she would be being sued by the aggrieved parents and therefore not be able to concentrate on us.

.

Obviously this essential information didn't exactly help me make informed decisions during labour.

NCT really was the only option.

"When I first contacted NCT, they were fantastically precious and snooty"

Who was 'they'? A volunteer mum in your local area? A booking clerk (paid position)? One of the staff on the switchboard at head office?

There are thousands of people involved with the charity at all different levels and from a range of backgrounds. Sad you met one person you didn't like and decided they representated the entire organisation from top to bottom. I take it you haven't done that with NHS staff you've come into contact with?

I understand that having an epidural does lead to an increase in the likelihood of intervention and this was very much hammered home in my sessions. What I objected to was the stigmatising of choosing to have one - I left our sessions feeling that to have an epidural was certainly a bad thing and would make me less deserving of my 'natural (and I use that term loosely) birth' badge, the touting of which seemed to be the ultimate NCT goal.

Maybe I take this view because of my birthing experience. I found the breast-feeding session really helpful, but thankfully, I found breastfeeding quite easy. Those women in my group who didn't find breastfeeding so easy have big problems with that session and how pro-breastfeeding it was.

Wini - the point I was making is that you'd never condemn someone for having extremely strong feelings about birthing in hospital.

Maybe your relative was phobic about going to hospital. Maybe she thought that her energy would pick up or the baby would shift and she'd be able to push him out at home - this does happen you know! Point being that until you've walked a mile in her shoes you can't really understand the choices she made.

Or maybe she's just a stupid woman who doesn't care about the life of her child - as you have clearly judged her to be.

I feel very sorry for her. I hope you will always keep your thoughts to yourself on her birth choices when you are with her.

"What I objected to was the stigmatising of choosing to have one - I left our sessions feeling that to have an epidural was certainly a bad thing and would make me less deserving of my 'natural (and I use that term loosely) birth' badge, the touting of which seemed to be the ultimate NCT goal"

So what exactly did your teacher say that stigmatised women for choosing an epidural? Did she use value laden language - saying that epidurals were 'bad', or that women who used them were failing in some way? Do you remember the words she used? I'm asking you this because if she did do this you could have reported her to the NCT as this sort of judgemental attitude is very much against the NCT ethos.

Or maybe you read something into what she said that wasn't actually there........ Something that has more to do with your own fears and desires for your birth.

I had a similar experience by accident with breastfeeding. I screwed it up essentially and ds was readmited for losing too much weight and fed by a tube for a few days, from expressed milk. As he was discharged, he was drinking ebm from a bottle and I begged to be given somehelp on re-establishing breastfeeding.

I was told to go to a breastfeeding class the next door that had just atarted. so i went in carrying ds and abottle, and had aroomful of pregnant mothers looking at me in horror, asking why i had a bottle for a newborn and the councellor tellign them i was a prime example of how things could go wrong.

no one offered to help me latch ds on at all. this was after 4 days in the hospital, and i left in tears. I did reastablish breastfeeding, but at home, and never went to any sort of class or baby group again.

She role-played from epidural through to birth, offering the worst-case scenario (but not letting us know it was the worst case scenario) at every point. So you left believing that having an epidural would lead you to her worst-case scenario. When talking about a 'natural birth', everything was described in glowing terms and it was discussed at great length - the 'bad birth' session was half an hour long and included everything other than your textbook 'natural birth'. Statistically in my group and, judging from this thread, in most groups, that is a very unrealistic portrayal of events. If post-natally, you reflect on your NCT experience, a majority of women will only ever feel that they failed somehow, which is incredibly damaging.

Interestingly, I was fairly fear-free about childbirth and I think this is because I believed the hype. I was frightened during labour when things weren't going the textbook way as I hadn't entertained other prospects. As no-one had said 'if you need it, it's ok to have an epidural', I was in agonies making the decision to have one and was then furious with myself for 'ruining' things. I know my desire to have the 'perfect birth' played a big part in this, but I hold the NCT partly responsible (or rather, my NCT teacher - I've rather enjoyed the nearly new sales) for making me feel less than adequate about having anything but the perfect 'natural birth'.

Sorry sabire but you're putting words in my mouth there. I actually was trying to make a balanced point, and you've jumped on one line and made out I'm saying something I'm not.
I'm not saying she didn't care about the life of her child either. Just that she was so focused on having the dream ideal birth, that she wouldn't accept intervention that was medically necessary I was simply using that as an illustration of the point I was making.

I had NCT Refresher classes with my 3rd baby and it was brilliant, I kicked myself for not having had the original classes before. The NHS classes I took instead were rubbish and didn't give any useful stuff eg about oxytocin being inhibited by adrenalin and oxygen/relaxed breathing being the antidote for adrenalin. It was this kind of science stuff that got me through the 3rd one. With a smaller group an antenatal teacher can tailor her teaching, as opposed to the dumbed down generic stuff my NHS classes gave.

HaviBut that was a Refresher class and it is easier to pay attention and visualise yourself in the scenario when you've done it before. Plus I do tend to learn things the hard way.

Didn't think I'd ever catch myself posting on a forum in support of NCT...
Firstly, I fully see where OP is coming from and Not unreasonable at all to be upset by their perceived "judgement."
I was very lucky that my NCT class was very balanced, the teacher fully supportive and allowed us to shape the sessions whilst also giving us the information we needed. As well as this I have made some great friends who have supported each other through the rollercoaster first 6 months. Our NCT teacher continued to support us in New Mums course and never once seemed judgemental about our births (mixed bag of sections, natural and instrumental) and our feeding issues (we were a pretty rubbish breastfeeding group!)
I think the main thing is that us women are a funny bunch; always keen to judge each other whether it be about the "right" births, feeding or parenting and we really need to give each other a break and realise that we're all doing the best we can

I was saddened to read of the original posters experience at her NCT group, none of us want to feel a failure when we did our best. Who goes to NCT classes then into the delivery room thinking 'right, give me the drugs', I would think that all NCT mums try their best but it is not always plain sailing. I went to NCT after my 1st birth [in 1973!] was induced, drugged up, episiotomied etc and was lucky in that 2nd and 3rd [twins] labours went well and drug free, but there is no way that No 1 would have come out that natural way. Natural is lovely and can be aimed at, but we must not think that every birth can be like that, and I would hope that that NCT class was unusual and rare!

redllamayellowllama "If post-natally, you reflect on your NCT experience, a majority of women will only ever feel that they failed somehow, which is incredibly damaging."

What on earth does that mean? Can you back this up with some kind of research, or is this just your personal opinion? What are you basing that comment on?

You ned to be very careful about making unsubstantiated generalisations.

You may chose to feel that you have 'failed somehow' , but it's only your experience. You shouldn't assume that 'a majority of women' will share that. You may chose to blame it on the information you took from your NCT class, other people's experience will be different.

As to holding the NCT responsible for your birth experience - I'm speechless.

I only went to my local NCT class because there were no NHS ante-natal classes in my area due to midwife shortages. With hindsight, I didn't feel I learned any more about birth & pregnancy than I did from my own baby books I'd bought. And DH & I felt rather out of place, all the other couples were clearly a LOT more comfortably off middle class types. They were nice, but we didn't have anything in common apart from the babies!
When we had a break the dads would all be talking about wine,cricket & what car they had (Audis, BMWs, Mercs) while poor DH (footy fan, cider drinker, Ford Focus ) had nothing to say. The other mums would be wittering on about their latest cleaner/housekeeper/secretary/assistant/whatever.

I also felt the teacher wasn't that good. Classes were very unstructured, she'd let people in the group talk too much & end up going right off the subject we were supposed to be doing that week, then over-running the class to catch up, frequently by a whole hour. Not good when you're eight months pregnant & exhausted by 8pm.

sorry you had a tough labour Op, but congrats on baby!! but tbh, think the last thing I'd have wanted to know about in my final trimester with pfb would be a tough labour as was terrified. You know that thing when all your friends tell you about their births before you've done it, you're already freaked out - I do believe that some things you really do just have learn for yourself

My NCT teacher was fantastic. I think she got the balance about right between getting geared up and empowered for a birth with minimum intervention and telling us about all the possible interventions, what they were like, when they were needed and the various side effects. I also read lots of research and several of the major midwifery magazines (I was working at a teaching hospital at the time). The couples on our course had a variety of expectations and plans, from me planning a home birth to a lady having a planed c-section.

When most of our births were sadly fairly horrible experiences (bar two I think, although all the babies were thankfully fine) she was fantastically supportive, and none of us blamed her for things going wrong. One couple made a formal complaint and two I think had debriefs with the chief midwife. I think four on our course of nine were severely traumatised by their "birth experience", basically because of a very poor unit, although maybe if they had been of the mindset that the doctor is always right it might have been easier (nothing worse than knowing things are going wrong and not being listened to or treated appropriately).

When I had ds (ten years ago) virtually no information was made available to parents about any aspects of birthing policy, and although in our area there was a choice of hospitals (due to geography) it certainly wasn't informed. Unfortunately we were all booked by the time we started our classes (the two women who didn't labour at the same hospital were the two that had positive birth experiences) but knowing that our local hospital was old fashioned in it's views and management at least forewarned us.

I doubt that dh would have been so comfortable in being bolshy without the information from our course, and I would probably have ended up being induced with an undiagnosed transverse oblique and thus undeliverable baby. As it was we got a scan (to persuade us not to go home and wait a bit longer given that there appeared to be no risk factors after early break of waters) and I had a c-section 30 mins later.

6 words: Post Natal Post Traumatic Stress Disorder
This is very real and we all know at least a handful of people who have had flashbacks, anger, depression, sense of failure, terror of pregnancy/labour/hospitals etc, many of whom have been misdiagnosed with PND and bunged on anti-depressants because most GPs aren't aware of it. It isn't caused by NCT classes or other people's opinions, it is caused by feeling terrifyingly out of control and feeling that your life or that of someone v close to you is in danger. One of the worst things you can face with this condition is the comments of those women who have had less traumatic births that think anyone who moans about theirs is a loser/failure/wimp etc.
PNPTSD can wreck marriages and the quickest (and not guaranteed) cure is to have another baby your way.

OH MY GOD....exactly the same thing happened to me. The NCT 'lady' only seemed to be interested in documenting all the birthstories for her records, when I told her I ended up having every intervention going she rapidly lost interest and turned back to my friend who had a 'lovely' homebirth. Then came back to me and started having a go because I had mentioned that my son had been totally draining both boobs at every feed. 'That's not possible she said....etc'. Only later I found out he had been tongue-tied and milk was never properly established, so it was possible.

THEN...she took a photo of all the babies together, and NEVER sent it to us.

I really feel for you, try to forget about it, you did a wonderful job, however she made you feel.

missismac my point was that when I matched my experience against that which was purported to be the norm at my NCT classes, I really felt I'd failed as another alternative had never been offered. Saying a majority of women would feel they failed was based on the fact that many women on this thread had births which deviated from a 'normal' birth.

I don't hold the NCT responsible for my birth experience, of course not, but I do think that their agenda-pushing had a negative emotional impact on me. And yes, I understand that they promote natural childbirth in a time when medical intervention is increasingly common and I support that, but I do think they need to be less dogmatic in their approach. Perhaps I had a very bad teacher - I know other groups found her to be similarly one-sided.

"At some point, the health of your baby has to become paramount"

To me this suggests that you believe that your this mother was putting her baby's safety second to her own wish for a homebirth. Everything in your post points to this, and this is how the mum in question would interpret your words if she was unlucky enough to read them.

"Then came back to me and started having a go because I had mentioned that my son had been totally draining both boobs at every feed. 'That's not possible she said....etc"

She probably meant that it's not possible because the breast never empties completely while the baby is feeding.

"The NCT 'lady' only seemed to be interested in documenting all the birthstories for her records, when I told her I ended up having every intervention going she rapidly lost interest and turned back to my friend who had a 'lovely' homebirth."

Has it occured to you that she may have been flustered - worried about your feelings and the feelings of other people at the reunion, feeling pulled in several ways at once? Or not sure how to respond to you because she sensed some discomfort in you about your own birth?

I feel really sorry for NCT teachers - I think women take out their insecurities and disappointments about their births on them, reading things into their behaviour and their words that actually aren't there, always wanting to interpret their meaning in the worst possible way . I know lots of NCT teachers and all of them are really sympathetic to women who have difficult births. Many people become NCT teachers because of their own traumatic birth experiences - they want to help other people have a better time of it. I'm not saying they never make mistakes, but they are in my experience very well intentioned and kind people. Many of them are struggling to combine work with having small babies and young children at home and they can't always do everything perfectly.