to by annoyed at this NCT antenatal group

[birthstoryvisit]

Ok, I know I'm being unreasonable, that's why I've name changed, but I need to get this off my chest.

My DS is three months' old. Yesterday, I went back to my old NCT teacher's class to give my birth story (long, epidural, ventouse, lots of stiches). A friend with a wonderful birth (waterbirth, soft lights) went too.

They were horrid to me. Did not ask me one question about my labour (I thought that they'd want to know what some of the interventions were really like). Their basic attitude was "You failed to have a natural labour. I do not need to talk to you because my labour will not be like that. I am coming to classes and will have a lovely, natural birth with maybe a bit of gas and air. You are a failure." They spent their whole time asking my friend about her ante natal yoga and whether it was the raspberry leaf tea that ensured the quick labour.

This isn't just me. The first thing my friend said when we left was "goodness, they were a bit judgy weren't they?". I get it, they're first time mums and in denial, but am I being unreasonable to hope that at least one of them has a long labour and needs an epidural?(I know I am really ). I gave up part of my weekend to try and be helpful. Grrr, won't be doing that again.

I'm wondering if the number of gynaes that have electives might not be something to do with the fact that they witness the birth from the outside as it were, without the hormone rush and all the rest of it. When I was in the ante-natal ward with pregnancy problems, we watched a birthing video one night and frankly, it was gross. Even one of the midwives went quite pale and muttered something about how it made her feel queasy. Yet this same midwife was perfectly capable when it came to supporting a real woman in real labour; I think it was the helplessness of watching it from the outside that made it seem worse. And I didn't find my own labour as scary as watching a film of labour in cold blood iyswim. So the choice of a gynae might not actually mean that much. I'd put my money on a midwife or doula in this situation.

Just to blow it all out I had 3 midwives (2+1 student) and one arrived a couple of hours before and 2 stayed for a good few hours afterwards. Actually they weren't busy and didn't need to rush off to anyone else (throughout the duration) so I got tea and bikkies in bed (made by them) while they put a wash on with the all the sheets and wrote their notes!

What's all this with midwives in hospital? Surely if you're in labour (whether at home or in hospital) you still tie up the midwife? Or you should! But if she skips from room to room looking after more than one woman who is in labour is she better utilised?

I can tell you my hospital delivery was horrific simply because I didn't have through care with the same person and got shunted from room to room and just when things really got going.....there was a shift change and I had to acquaint myself with yet another random person.

Stop arguing amongst yourselves you've all gone OT. sabire and tiktok can you really not recognise that some NCT groups do beat the 'natural' birth drum a little too much and miss the point of the kind of support they ought to be providing? You cannot possibly know every NCT group so it is pointless defending them at all costs. The comments on here clearly demonstrate that some groups are severely lacking.

Sorry the first paragraph is about my home birth but I didn't make it clear!

From my own experience I think before people have their first baby they are completely naive about childbirth. When I went to my NCT we were all having these lovely chats about how to breath, what to wear and whether we were going to give birth on dry land or in water. It never occurred to any of us that we may need intervention or even that we mahy need a c-section (in fact we all ended up having a c).

The reality is so different. You may have a natural birth but 50% of the population won't and therefore you might not. In addition, if you are lucky to have a natural birth you still have at least one person sticking their hand up your vagina (sorry, birth canal) at various stages to see how dilated you are.

Answer to OP - yes they probably were wrong but you have to excuse their naivety. Until one actually goes through childbirth you don't appreciate the pain. All you know is that it will come out for certain but the way it comes out depends on your cervix not on you.

Belissima - it's pointless getting involved in arguments with people who are better informed on an issue than you are, unless your aim is to make yourself look silly.

You say you're happy with your births. Why do you feel the need to keep asserting this point? Nobody on this thread has told you shouldn't have had a c-section or that you'd have been better off having a vaginal birth. There is no one here who seeks to interfere with your right to pay for an elective section, or who has denigrated your decision to have one. The fact that despite the lack of persecution you feel persecuted and judged speaks volumes to me - and it's not saying 'I'm at ease with my choices'.

I would also like to see women have a choice as to how they birth their baby - and would like to see elective sections offered to those who want one, but not in a publically funded system where women and babies are already suffering ill health from a lack of resources in maternity care. Offering elective sections for all in this sort of context would lead to a great deal of heartache and harm.

By the way, the Royal College of Obstetricians and Gynaecologists suggest that while perineal pain and urinary incontinence are indeed higher in women who have a vaginal delivery, bladder injury, ureteric injury, hysterectomy, need for further surgery, thromboemolitic disease, need for readmission to hospital, infertility, placenta praevia, antepartum stillbirth in future pregnancies and maternal death are higher in women having c-sections, all of which to a certain extent balance out the higher rate of perineal pain and urinary incontinence associated with vaginal birth, don't you think?

I otoh was greatly relieved when the new shift came on, as I didn't like the first midwife. Would have hated to have had her undivided attention for hour after hour.

But then, just as the nice midwife had helped me into the lovely warm bath to relax- the fire alarm went. Sometimes, you just can't win, can you?

Hurrah for Bellissima. Boo hiss to the NCT and their attempts to guilt trip anyone who wants or needs a C-section.

I developed a pathological FEAR of natural birth after trying and failing to give birth to ds1 - 2 days of painful back to back labour followed by an emergency section.

DS1 was massive and just got stuck - there was nothing I could do about it.

So I chose another C-section for ds2 and it was great - the doctors and midwives were 100 per cent behind me as well (this was in a regular NHS hospital).

If we're going to bash people for wasting NHS resources, I can think of groups far more deserving of criticism than women having caesarian births - smokers/alcoholics/drug users/the obese/violent nutters who attack the medical staff etc etc

I would do EXACTLY the same again in the unlikely event that I ever become pg again.

"can you really not recognise that some NCT groups do beat the 'natural' birth drum a little too much"

Meaning what?

What is the 'natural birth drum'?

Are you suggesting that NCT classes are giving women factually inaccurate information about c-section and assisted birth rates in the UK?

"In addition, if you are lucky to have a natural birth"

If nationally 50% of women genuinely can't safely give birth without medical input, why is it that some hospitals consistently have much higher rates of normal birth than others, even when figures are adjusted to take account of demographics? Luck is just one part of it - good care is another part. The very simplest differences in care can make a huge difference to a mums chance of achieving a normal birth.

"you still have at least one person sticking their hand up your vagina"

Only if you a) need it and b) allow it
!

Honestly, the fatalistic and submissive attiude to birth from some people on this thread is the best argument for the likes of the NCT that I have ever heard!

Do we have to do boo hiss to the whole of the NCT? Every single one of them?

I led an NCT group once. I never guilt tripped anyone. I don't think.

Sabire- can I ask you a genuine question about your use of 'normal' birth as a term. I understand your reasoning it for using it and support your aims (I've posted further up the thread about my labour, which with the benefit of hindsight I think may have gone differently with more supportive care). I understand the argument you are trying to make by using that term (which you've also explained on this thread)

but

the opposite of normal is obviously abnormal and I'm not sure that it is that helpful to the debate to tell people that they have had an abnormal birth. I totally understand your stance that medically that may be the case, but given the pergorative connotations about using the word, isn't is possible that it makes people more hostile to the argument and therefore impedes rather than assists discussion?

This is a genuine question by the way. As a very committed breastfeeder, I feel similarly about the use of 'artifical milk' as a term instead of 'formula'.

Sabire, I think it would have to depend on what any indidual teacher actually said. In my case, I had a known medical problem (and as it so happens both my dcs suffer from a separate genetic disorder that may also have affected their birth). I spent a substantial portion of my pregnancies in hospital thinking I might lose them, and there was genuine cause for concern (both were IUGR and ds's heartrate went down during labour). I was also very ill immediately after the birth (haemorrhaged quite badly with dd and blood pressure all over the place after ds).

For an NCT teacher to say to me as an invidual that I should have had support so that I could have made the decision to labour in a midwife-led unit was clearly plain silly. I'd have lost ds. And dd might well have lost me.

Statistically, of course she was right. But that does not mean that every individual case is going to conform to statistics. And speaking to an individual as if they in themselves summed up the statistics of all the females in the country- well, it doesn't make sense.

But speaking of the whole of the NCT as if every single group leader is going to be summing up your worst experiences doesn't make a lot of sense either: to me, it seems like six of the one and half a dozen of the other.

OK boo-hissing the whole NCT is a bit silly .

I spent lots of dosh on NCT classes and had a very scary first birth experience.

So I'm probably not the best person to defend them.

Honestly, the fatalistic and submissive attiude to birth from some people on this thread is the best argument for the likes of the NCT that I have ever heard!

sabire I would actually agree with that to some extent. The problem is that a lot of women just don't KNOW their rights. Some don't have enough information about what is going to happen in childbirth, and as you say, meekly submit to whatever the doctors want. I feel that I was quite well-informed, and felt that I was as prepared for labour as I could be (given that I had never experience it before). One example is the number of people who say to me 'but they don't LET you go beyond 14 days overdue' Um they can't tie you to the bed and force you to accept induction (although they can pressure you horribly) But I got my information from mn - and it was lovely how many people were willing to enlighten someone nervous about birth.

mslucy: you throw some boos at NCT and "their attempts to guilt trip anyone who wants or needs a C-section."

Can you show me where NCT does this?

I am mystified.

I happen to disagree with sabire about women being required to pay for a non-medically-necessary section....but disagreements happen! I am pretty certain this does not represent NCT policy. But this would not be to make people feel guilty, but to conserve resources.

I disagree with this view because people may have very strong reasons for choosing a section, deep-seated reasons rather than 'casual' ones, and if someone is so frightened/anxious about giving birth they prefer to have a section, then I don't like the idea of them paying for these feelings in cash as well.

Anyway.....there is no guilt tripping as far as I can see. Mothers may have strong feelings anyway, but they come from inside, not outside, don't you think? That's why they are so strong!

YES I am sabire. Obviously some classes are biased and not interested in all the options other than the natural birth route.

But you obviously know each and every single NCT member and leader and have attended each and every session ever held to disagree about that, don't you?

Oh and all those posters on here who have had negative experiences with NCT, well they're just all talking rubbish aren't they?

I personally don't have a grudge against the NCT but I find your defence of them at all costs rather baffling and can only surmise that you must be equally misled in all your opinions so it's hard to take you seriously.

Where is the balance? NCT are great rant rant rant. Really? Others disagree. FULL STOP.

Edgarallenpoo* "i was rather annoyed by the 'they'll learn' tone of many posts - wishing ill on women in labour seems in fantastically poor taste to me."

Nobody wishes anyone ill, think you are being a bit oversensitive yourself there. I'm sure we all made judgements like that before we had our first babies didn't we? It's how the brain copes with the unknown. We now say "they'll learn" to remind ourselves to be more thickskinned about their inexperienced comments/percieved judginess. Afterall, the OP is about feeling judged by those with no experience.

To be fair, I think some of the guilt tripping that went on in my case did actually come from outside, in that the local NCT were figthing terribly hard to preserve the local midwife led unit. So they came to see that as the only woman friendly alternative- despite the fact that we had a VERY mother friendly local hospital with an excellent breastfeeding counsellor etc etc.

But to be supportive of their aims, you really either had to have opted to go to the midwife led unit, or at least be willing to express regret that you hadn't chosen to go there. In my particular situation I did not feel capable of doing either.

aaahhh yes I remember well the advice to take whale music, essential oils and that book to read whilst sipping raspberry leaf tea........

MY ARSE!!!

On 'normal' birth - this is a technical term, and it figures in policy and position statements from the RCOG, the RCM as well as NCT.

I accept that in the vernacular, the opposite of 'normal' is 'abnormal' and that this has strong overtones of criticism and worse. But 'normal' is actually a neutral, descriptive word. We really should be getting beyond worrying about using a technical term because we don't like the way its opposite is used in other contexts. No one tells a woman, 'your birth was abnormal'.

Just the other day, my dh asked me 'do you want a normal cup of tea, or one of those herbal ones?' I don't get all offended that he thinks I drink 'abnormal' tea sometimes.

Genuine question: does any NCT teacher ever suggest whale music? I never heard about it until I read mumsnet!

Abnormal is one of those words that are neutral in themselves but have acquired bad connotations by being used in negative contexts. Like 'handicap' or 'retarded'. Even 'idiot' was once a neutral term. Terms do change connotations.

I have to admit I did a double take when I read my old pregnancy book the other day and, under Ante-Natal Testing came across the heading Abnormalities. Yeah, that would be my children then. Fine in a medical context, of course and as a technical term, but as a parent, I would on the whole prefer the term Special Needs.

Have never heard of whale music seriously being suggested. But the NCT teacher I referred to earlier went on at great length about the quality of biscuits as a decisive factor, despite all she knew about my childen's problems. This seemed to me at least equally frivolous.

Tiktok - As I said, it was a genuine question rather than me arguing with Sabire's use of the term. I wasn't aware that the term 'normal' birth was a technical term.

On the other hand, I suppose if I wasn't aware then there's a good chance that other women are not aware and do understand normal in the layman's term of the opposite being abnormal (totally take your point that no one would actually say a birth was abnormal).

Whilst I take your point about using and normalising technical terms, I do sometimes think technical terms can actually obstruct debate, as those who use them understand the meaning but there may be emotional connotations to those who don't. And I say that as a lawyer who is more than guilty of using technical terms to lay people myself and not realising that they may think of the word differently from me.

Sorry, bit of a hijack that one. Thank you for answering. Mind you, I think the thread has already drifted fairly far off topic!

No tiktok not NCT - I meant inexperienced mums deciding on their birth plan following on from Edgar's post.

I remember warning my DH that if he suggested any of those things to me whilst in labour it was going to get very violent. I am a rolls-up-sleeves-lets-get-on-with-it type!

NCT sometimes use 'straightforward birth' or 'normal, straightforward birth' which I think is good.

nct.org.uk/info-centre/information/view-45 is the factsheet on straightforward birth.

Just seen the factsheet on sections:

nct.org.uk/info-centre/information/view-105

"Birth by caesarean section is now far more common than it was a few years ago. In some parts of the UK, as many as 30 per cent of births are caesareans, so it is unwise to assume that ?it won?t happen to me?, or ignore the possibility that your baby could be born this way. "

Nothing remotely judgemental or guilt trippy about any of this or the succeeding text....