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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

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Original poster

to think that after 5 years you would learn at least some English??

92 replies

macdoodle · 01/10/2009 11:25

Now I am pretty sure that IANBU but am prepared to be told otherwise!
This is NOT a rascist/immigrant thread I am genuinely curious and have been mulling it over for a few days now!

I am doing a children and mothers group counselling thing with DD1, for children from/in domestic abuse situations!
There are 8 of us (mums/grans and children)!
It is intense but very very good and am finding it incredibly helpful as are the other mums (the children have a group seperate to us at the same time covering the same things in different ways)

One of the mums is absolutely lovely, well spoken, participates, talkative, kind, interested in others, her DD is lovely as well!
She has a horrendous story, she fled from an abusive (arranged) marriage in Pakistan, the abuse sounds horrific both mental and physical, and I am sure is just the tip of the iceberg.
She has no family whatsoever here and doesnt seem like a lot of support.

I like her a lot, and DD1 likes her DD and has asked if we could invite them over for tea on day!

She fled Pakistan 5 years ago when her DD was 3, she is now 8 like my DD1.
Her DD speaks immaculate English and obviously goes to a English speaking school, though I know it is in an area with an high ethnic population.

However, the mum speaks no English watsoever, and I mean none, she appears to understand a little but is yet to utter a single English word. She has a translater provided with her (who actually is also lovely). But boy it makes conversations difficuly/awkward/stilted, I never really know how much she understands me, how much to say and then wait for the translator, though she (the translator) is pretty good at telling me to hold on so she can translate!
Its awkward, sometimes I feel like I am having a conversation with the translator, sometimes I feel rude as clearly the 2 of us are empathising!

I just dont understand it, she has been here 5 years, it must make her life so difficult not to speak the language, she sems bright and eloquent, I cant imagine she would find it massively difficult to learn, why wouldnt you??

OP posts:

aoifesmama · 01/10/2009 18:33

My MIL has been living in the UK since the 1980s and speaks very very little English. All 5 of her children live here and all grandchildren were born here. I met my DH over 6 years ago and in that time whenever I have been at a family event noone speaks in English unless they are speaking directly to me. Everyone except MIL (who understands English) can speak English, but just choose not to. This is with the exception of grandchildren who range from 20 to my DD (6 months, who can say Dada so at least I understand her!). I find this completely soul destroying. DH knows how I feel and so I only go to the functions if I have to. I have learnt enough basic Ghanaian to understand what is going on around me, but really feel strongly about the fact that MIL should at least try to speak some English. At the start of the relationship it used to get to me more, but I've slowly learnt that MIL is generally very nice, just very Ghanaian! Will be interesting (upsetting) I suppose when DD is older, as although hopefully she will grow up speaking both, I would like her to speak English if we go out and I'm there (although maybe thats a whole new AIBU thread!)

moondog · 01/10/2009 21:51

What irritates you Aoife, that they choose to speak their native tongue to each other and not English? Why on earth should they? To please you?

Having said that, everyone who lives in a foreign country should make a concerted effort to speak the language and it is a disgrace if they don't or give up.

The first thing I have always done when moving about is sort out language lessons.

mrsruffallo · 01/10/2009 21:55

frogwatcher- I would argue that it is necessary,even in those communities. Isn't it important to know the language of the law makers, schools(to converse with teachers) and to integrate into the country you have chosen to make your home.

aoifesmama · 01/10/2009 22:21

No, I really mean, if we go for dinner I will sit in a room surrounded by people speaking and understanding nothing, unless its someone asking me if I'm okay.

Or more so whenever anyone comes here (like in the days after DD was born) and speak to each other with me sitting not knowing what is going on.

mathanxiety · 02/10/2009 16:58

Aoifesmama, I think your in laws are not exactly making you feel a part of the family. If they all at least understand English, then they are being rude. Is the family 'run' by the MIL? Does she think she would be doing too much for your sake if they were all to speak English in her house? Is it a display of her power and influence over her children, including her son, your DH, that they don't speak English in her house? Is her house "Little Ghana" and are you being cast as a 'foreigner' there? I think your DH should insist on English in your home at least. If he can't stand up to them, then you have a MIL problem disguised as a language problem.

Hando · 02/10/2009 17:11

Aoifesmama - If they are in your house and speaking their native language when they can speak English and know you can;t understand their language then you are being rude. You could ask them to speak English when in your home? But when in their then you can;t really do much. What does your DP/DH say? Does he speak their native language to them or English.

Also, I love the name Aoife!

belgo · 02/10/2009 17:15

YABU. There are thousands if not millions of brtis living abroad who never bother to learn the local language, despite living there for years.

CloudDragon · 02/10/2009 17:33

I work with many women who are fleeing domestic violence. many of these are from abroad and these are the main reasons I have come across that they haven't learnt English:

Husband actively prevents them from learning English. (what better way to keep someone dependent on you)
Husband doesn't let them leave the house on their own (except for school run...a number of women I have worked with were literally locked in the house all day)
The have no access to English classes (the waiting list around here is up to 2 years and you have to know where to go..+.therefore you would need someone to help you to access them that speaks English)

Have little or no formal education (the most extreme example I have of this is a lovely afghani woman who couldn't count to ten in her own language and couldn't distinguish between written English and Farsi,I spent a few months trying to teach her just a few words)

domestic violence can lead to low self esteem and self belief

I will probably think of some more in a bit.

starwhores · 02/10/2009 17:36

I also find it deeply annoying when shops only have one language (not English) for signs and so on. I accept a Polish shop needs things written in Polish but they should have English underneath.

moondog · 02/10/2009 21:52

It would be bizarre frankly for them all to switch to English Aoife just so that you can understand. Where do you draw the line?
Are all conversations that take place in the same room as you to take place in English on the offchance that you might feel offended?

They are speaking their language with each other as they have always done and always should do. How about you learning their language? Does your dh speak it to your child? I am from a bilingual home.If we had reverted to Emglsih every time an English speaker was about then we would never have spoken our mother tongue.Our mother (English) learnt as we grew up and could always follow the conversation.

abra1d · 02/10/2009 21:58

Yup--if you're living in a country you should make every effort to learn the language.

Whether you're English and living in France, or Polish or Ghanian living in England.

The bill for translators is seriously high. This situation does nobody any favours: neither the people who can't integrate properly nor the tax-payer forking out.

LynetteScavo · 02/10/2009 22:12

Millions of Americans too, Belgo.

I don't really undertand the OP; "One of the mums is absolutely lovely, well spoken, participates, talkative, kind, interested in others, her DD is lovely as well!"

How does the OP know she is well spoken?

Jux · 02/10/2009 22:16

Poor thing. She might be able to speak rather more than you think, but even if you knew a language enough to get by, you would find it bloody hard to go to group therapy and talk about the abuse you have suffered in that language. Much better to have a translator.

Original poster

macdoodle · 03/10/2009 08:06

Lynette - she is well spoken in HER language (farsi I believe) - what I mean is she talks lively and confidentally in her language to the translator!
She doesnt mumble or stutter or seem to repeat things, or seem particularly shy though it is difficult to tell!
ok??

OP posts:

mathanxiety · 03/10/2009 18:22

A translator might not necessarily be repeating word for word what she hears. She might be conveying the sense and eliminating repetitions. In the case of someone communicating in a group about abuse she has suffered, there's possibly a far greater therapeutic value to saying it out loud in your own language, even if the words are then translated. The speaker hears herself putting it in words; admitting it and naming it and understanding it is a huge part of therapy.

aoifesmama · 03/10/2009 23:16

moondog I completely understand what you're saying and am very open to the fact that when I go to a party or function with lots of people then I should expect that they will speak in Ghanaian. But I suppose in my head when I am in a small family setting, e.g. when MIL and SIL came to the hospital when I had DD, they spoke to DH across the bed in Ghanaian (with sometimes mine or DD's name in the conversation) and its situations like that when I find it very hard. Or when MIL comes over and its just DH, MIL and me in the room. Perhaps though I am BU

scattykatty · 04/10/2009 10:36

When I lived in Germany a translator was NEVER provided, learn German or provide your own translator.

Why on earth should we foot the bill!? Why learn when everything is provided for you free. My German inproved leaps and bounds when I needed to find out what they were pumping into my arm and when I would get to leave hospital.

belgo · 04/10/2009 13:37

I'm shocked that a free translator is provided. I can understand the use of a translator in a hospital or police station, but not for going to a mother and children's group. Where on earth is the incentive to learn the language? It's one thing providing free or cheap language lessons, but ridiculous providing a free translator.

moondog · 04/10/2009 13:41

I think so Aoife. Sorry.
As you child grows, you will learn more though. Show an interest! it will gain you so many Brownie points with the family.

I agree re no incentive if translators provided. I've lived in a lot of remote places where I had to learn some very basic Russian and Turkeish very very quickly to cope in shops and restaurants and on public transport.

Mybox · 04/10/2009 13:42

She might not have had the opportunity to mix with english speakers so hasn't been able to try out the language. It will be a great help to her that that she is in your group. It's also good that she has a translator to help her as this will boost her confidence in participating. It takes alot of self belief to walk into a group where you know no one & don't speak a word of the language.

stitchtime · 04/10/2009 13:45

i obviously come from the wrong part of pakistan, because i have yet to meet a pakistani from pakistan, who cant speak and communicate with some level of english. and i am talking here about people who have never set foot outside their own country, and are illieterate as well.
when i went to pakistan a ffew years ago with kids, i was hoping they would pick up a few words of urdu at least. six weeks later, nothing, nada, but what they went there with, which was about six words, ... no one, but no one spoke to them in any language other than english.

Mybox · 04/10/2009 13:45

and it's not just an informal conversation she's having - it's counselling & this depends on her being able to express herself as she wants & not be constrained by just using the words she knows.

Anyone who knows a bit of french, for example, couldn't just go to a group counselling session without feeling a bit overwhelmed.

BonsoirAnna · 04/10/2009 13:47

I think this is just another example of how the UK bends over backwards to be kind and understanding towards immigrants, and how that kindness and understanding can backfire as it actually prevents people from assimilating.

belgo · 04/10/2009 13:47

sorry missed the bit about it being a counselling session, only saw the bit about it being a mother and children's group.

I must read the OP correctly.

stitchtime · 04/10/2009 13:50

people who dont speak english, how?????
do they not watch telly?
do they not watch the latest hollywood blockbusters?

i find it difficult to comprehend how youcan stay away from english.

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