to think that after 5 years you would learn at least some English??

[macdoodle]

Now I am pretty sure that IANBU but am prepared to be told otherwise!
This is NOT a rascist/immigrant thread I am genuinely curious and have been mulling it over for a few days now!

I am doing a children and mothers group counselling thing with DD1, for children from/in domestic abuse situations!
There are 8 of us (mums/grans and children)!
It is intense but very very good and am finding it incredibly helpful as are the other mums (the children have a group seperate to us at the same time covering the same things in different ways)

One of the mums is absolutely lovely, well spoken, participates, talkative, kind, interested in others, her DD is lovely as well!
She has a horrendous story, she fled from an abusive (arranged) marriage in Pakistan, the abuse sounds horrific both mental and physical, and I am sure is just the tip of the iceberg.
She has no family whatsoever here and doesnt seem like a lot of support.

I like her a lot, and DD1 likes her DD and has asked if we could invite them over for tea on day!

She fled Pakistan 5 years ago when her DD was 3, she is now 8 like my DD1.
Her DD speaks immaculate English and obviously goes to a English speaking school, though I know it is in an area with an high ethnic population.

However, the mum speaks no English watsoever, and I mean none, she appears to understand a little but is yet to utter a single English word. She has a translater provided with her (who actually is also lovely). But boy it makes conversations difficuly/awkward/stilted, I never really know how much she understands me, how much to say and then wait for the translator, though she (the translator) is pretty good at telling me to hold on so she can translate!
Its awkward, sometimes I feel like I am having a conversation with the translator, sometimes I feel rude as clearly the 2 of us are empathising!

I just dont understand it, she has been here 5 years, it must make her life so difficult not to speak the language, she sems bright and eloquent, I cant imagine she would find it massively difficult to learn, why wouldnt you??

no!

Starbucks is another matter, though that is a whole other language...

I haven't read all the posts, but I know a mum from slovakia. Her kids are bi-lingual and seem very happy and out-going. She lives in Ireland and she can't speak English. She's miserable. I used to try and chit chat with her but we've used up all our small talk now. I once suggested she take a night course in English which was probably terribly rude (?) but I just feel for her, she cuts such a lonely figure. She's been here about 5years now. People try, but who the hell learnt slovakian in school.

What about all those Brits who live in little ex-pat communities in Spain and who never need to learn the langauge because they live in a little British bubble?

I am not saying it is at all the same, just that it's not as unusual las you might think.

What's that got to do with this branflake?
Can't see the relevance of your post

mrsruffallo, I think that branflake81 is just acknowledging that the OP is not being racist and also that there need not be a reason for this woman not speaking English other than that she has not actually needed to as those around her on a day-to-day basis speak the same language. That there might be nothing cultural in it, as has been suggested in other postings, just that it hasn't had to be a priority for her.

I would imagine that in her case it is part of how he husband kept her under control. If she couldn't integrate, he had more chance of controlling her.

It's interesting about speaking the language of the country you are in. I agree entirely. Yet have never managed to learn the language of any of the countries I have/am living in!

In Thailand I had enough to get around and to shop and order in restaurants etc. In Vietnam I had less. Both Thai and Vietnamese are tonal languages and I am tone deaf so found it very difficult. The people I knew who had most success with the language - esp Vietnamese - were people who where musical or could sing.

And now here we are in Hungary! I did try. But it is such a difficult language and when we arrived first very few people spoke English and they were shocked and not very helpful if you tried to use the little Hungarian you had. So I gave up.

It was funny - I was in a taxi the other evening and for the first time in 5 years here, I had a female taxi driver. I asked her did she speak English and she said a little. I commented that in 5 years I had never some across a female taxi driver. She wanted to know why I didn't speak more Hungarian after 5 years. I said it was too difficult. She then admitted that she lived in the States and Nigera for some years and still doesn't speak much English!

We all immigrated to the UK in 1969.

I was 3. I quickly forgot my native language and as was not encouraged to speak it - I can now only speak English.

I am the oldest of about 30 grandchildren (huge family!!)

My grandmother would have been about 40 when she came here and was not encouraged to learn to speak English as her husband / kids did everything for her.

40 years later ... she is a widow living on her own and speaks no English (though can understand a bit). She can only talk to one or two of her grandchildren and is for all intense and purposes housebound. She watches satellite TV in her language all day long. I have little or no realtionship with her because communicating is so difficult.

I find it very difficult to understand how my family and the government let this situation happen.

English classes should be made compulsory and we need to scale down the number of translators. Otherwise in years to come there will many more people like my grandmother. We do immigrants no favors by shying away from this issue because we are afraid of accusations of racism.

There .... got a bit hobby horse off my chest.

I'd ask her to tea without the translator, as you say she is much more likely to try a few words in a home situation like that, perhaps just to talk to your dd?

I would also say it is just possible that she is not speaking English in front of the translator if she is either not sure, or is very sure, that the translator knows some of her family? I have to say I have only heard of this happening and it seems very unlikely, but perhaps she is just playing it safe for the time being.

I do share your feelings as it's horrible to imagine a life in another country where I didn't speak the language, but I can see that it could happen.

It takes a hell of a lot of confidence to communicate in another language - even if you understand it fairly well.

I'm sure if you invited them to tea the daughter would be able to translate (we've had bilingual toddlers automatically assume interpretation roles in our family - even though all the adults spoke the various languages and were perfectly able to understand one another!)

You need a reason to want to learn a language - if you've been really miserable living in a country the motivation can be very lacking, making it even more difficult.

Sulwah, I completely agree with you re compulsory English classes but I'd disagree re the translators. If a woman needs to talk to her doctor, there's not much point asking her to come back in six months when she's done a class, she needs help then. IMO there's much too little use of the translators we have, not too much (worked in a GP surgery til very recently - the GPs would hardly ever use the translation service but would get family members to translate, which in my view is quite wrong though obviously is going to happen sometimes). Also, using a translator, while better than nothing, must be a frustrating exercise and might improve motivation for language learning.

English is one of, if not the most, hardest languages to learn. We have so many words that mean the same thing (eg Speedy, rapid, quick, fast...) and words that spell teh same but sound differetn (windy, windy etc etc). Plus slang and it is actually increibly hard to grasp. If you have come from a culture where your are not educated well because of your gender, moving countries after trauma and probably finding moving into a wider society may all be more than she can take on, let alone learning an incredibly difficult language. It is a pity for her as she limits herself, but it may also be that it is beyond her reach of ability.

But that's not true is it?
She is bringing an interpreter to a counselling group with her.
I don't think that anyone thought the OP was being racist.

Yes - English is a hard language. But we need to help people at least give it a go. Some basic English is better than none. Its not good enough to just blame it on culture, language difficulty etc. We need to actively encouage and help people.

And yes - obviously people need translators at the Doctors. (BTW when my husband was taken ill on holiday in France there was no translation service offered).

But there needs to be a limit on how many goverment services are translated. Otherwise where is the incentive? Had it been compulsory to heave learned English in 1969 - my uncles would have had to have taken my grandma to classes and she would not be so isolated as she is now.

My family were (and still are) very greatful for the UK for taking us in. We, in the second generation have gained so much by being here. And if the government of the day had said that English classes were compulsory then we would have respected that and obeyed the law. And my grandma would be able to talk to her grandchildren and her great-grandchildren.

Tbh I think she's hiding behind her translator.

I'm a Brit living abroad and I do tend to clam up when I feel shy - but I've been here 10 years now and it's just impossible for it NOT to infiltrate. Sub-titles on the telly, cereal packets, posters - you would have to consciously block it out for it not to sink in.

On saying that, my hairdresser's parents moved here from Italy in the 70s and still don't speak the local languages...

Being isolated is sometimes part of the culture, I think more so for women who are encouraged to stay at home and not mingle. Where I used to live, there was a big Algerian community with lots of shops, especialy butchers (who where exceptionally polite to me) There were also a lot of young men hanging out in or in front of local coffee shops. There was never a young woman amongst them! Some of them must have sisters, wives, mothers. They must be at home...
So I don't think that this woman didn't want to integrate, in fact I think that unless you are an english speaker, in most countries you have to make the effort and learn.
I agree that compulsory lessons for people who wish to live here would be a good idea, because then even if the family doesn't want the wife to become integrated, they'll have no choice.

Meanwhile, do you know anybody, like a neighbour of yours or a relative of hers that speak s a bit of english? Then they could translate...
I think it's lovely that you want to ivite her for a cup of tea, I'm sure she would appreciate the gesture anyway.

I agree that it's very possible that she knows a little but has had all the confidence knocked out of her and is afraid to sound 'unfluent'. Plus, stress does a number on your brain. PTSD makes formal learning or picking up anything complex like language really hard, and English is a difficult language to learn even without the changes in brain chemistry that can occur when someone lives with abuse.

If she hasn't the courage to go to formal classes and doesn't really need English in daily life, I can see why she would just opt for the least stressful path and continue to try to find her voice in her own first language before taking on another.

I think if you invited her for tea, then you could ask the translator to come too, and if that wasn't possible, then maybe the DD could help out? You are so nice to be thinking of this woman even though I'm sure your own situation is no garden of roses.

No skihorse, you don't know all the details so unfair to say she is hiding behind the translator.
In reality you don't know what she is doing or thinking or feeling. Also it doesn't take much to discount your other theory of it being impossible to absorb. She might not watch telly with subtitles or any telly at all. She may well not have cereal for breakfast and posters may be just background and not on her radar. What is likely is that she is dealing with a number of issues and probably taking on another language is more than she can cope with at the moment.
I'm not saying you meant it in a negative way just I don't think it's quite right. As other people have said it is very easy not to integrate given rigidity in some cultures and social networks. Not by personal choice but by external constraints.
To break out of something like that is difficult to understand if you haven't experienced it yourself. How oppressed would you have to be to be forced into marrying someone who then abused you? Learning another language just isn't top of her priorities. That's not to say she won't in the future.

freename As a survivor of domestic abuse and a woman who left alone to live in a foreign (actually my fourth) country I have got a pretty good idea of what goes on. We're talking 5 years here, not 5 months.

A friend of mine in the US worked for an agency that helped settle and acclimatise refugees, mostly from African regions where women's role in society was secondary to men. The cultural context and the resulting mindset of the women greatly affected the speed with which they could integrate, and language was often the last thing they could approach. They were simply not used to taking the reins and speaking on their own behalf, dealing with government agencies, dealing with schools, dealing with bus drivers or doctors. In short, any activity that required speaking had been carried out by a community or family spokesman in their former lives. Language was not the significant tool for them in their home environment that it is for a western woman.

Plus, the women's lives were just as busy as before, caring for their families in their traditional way (without much practical help from husbands), and although they had no need to go and fetch water from a well, gather firewood, etc., they faced multiple challenges with grocery shopping, public transport, helping their children deal with the emotional fallout of change. There was a lot on their plates. They were simply tired at the end of each day, and going off to an English class was the last thing they could manage.

A western woman moving abroad, even one who experiences domestic abuse, brings with her a different sense of self from that which a woman from a less equal society might have.

skihorse I mentioned earlier that I understand Spanish. That's because I was in an abusive relationship with a Latino man. He desperately wanted me to learn Spanish "so we can argue in my language". His family and friends would switch to English when I was around but he stopped them because I "had to learn" which isolated me even more. I often pretended to know less than I did so that I wouldn't be forced to speak Spanish.

So yes, you pick it up, but even now, years later, trying to learn Spanish brings up all sorts of unpleasantness for me.

I personally think she hasn't been forced to learn it, but it's also possible that learning English is a loaded proposition for her and some sympathy for her situation is in order.

skihorse as one woman to another I empathise with what you personally experienced and hope you are in a better position now. It doesn't matter whether it's 5 years or 5 months, we cannot dictate what her journey is or how she goes about it. People deal with crises in different ways and perhaps for you learning a language wasn't a hurdle but perhaps for her it is?
FWIW I agree that in the bigger picture of her life, learning English would be hugely beneficial to her and her DD but ultimately it's up to her. Also if she's getting by ok as she is, she might not be aware of just how much benefit there may be in learning it.

It is also possible that she just has no idea how to go about learning?

If she has been quite "cut off" from English-speakers in the past, she may not have picked up all that much, especially if she has never learnt another language before and has not had the practice of picking up what things might mean. And of course without speaking any English it would be much harder for her to find out about any classes, or even (perhaps) be aware that they are available.

Maybe just ask her nicely if she would be interested in learning, and would like you to help her find out about classes?

She may not want to speak English. As has been said, there is often no need and most large urban areas now have areas where english is not spoken. My good friends parents came to england when she was a baby (now 30) and neither of them want to learn English and never have (makes communication tricky when i go over but we manage through smiles). Neither do a lot of their friends. My friend has tried to encourage them as there are free english lessons laid on in their district, but they simply do not see the point or need. Their choice, and they manage fine as they get given translators for dealings with the local authority, schools etc.

Asolutely agree Mathanxiety "A western woman moving abroad, even one who experiences domestic abuse, brings with her a different sense of self from that which a woman from a less equal society might have."

I do agree. But none of the English ex-pats I have met in my own country seem to agree: they just think the natives should brush up their language skills.