to be so peeved that we spend approx £1400 a month on childcare

[couture1]

I know I have to pay for the service but it leaves me with little left over each month and we need to salaries to get by. I dont want to give up work as 1 cant afford to and 2 Im hoping that when 3dc are at school in 3 years time we will be better off each month - but how do we manage until then?

Rant rant rant

(that was to kittycatty, btw. So many pussy cats! )

kitty, as a childminder aren't you are biting the hand that feeds by saying you don't agree with both parents working? If every family had one SAHP then there would be no need of childmniders surely?

Im not just talking about mums (but only women can give birth) If a couple decide for the man to be at home for the first few years.(as in my friends case)

sweetkitty, I have never had any family help despite working full time - largely because I have no family.

I also don't have a cleaning lady, gardener, ironing lady - I used to even object to Ex p taking the car to the car wash because it was cheaper to use a bucket & sponge at home.

Please don't assume that those working FT even on decent salaries have a life full of luxury...it really isnt always the case.

Oh where are these posts coming from?! I didn't say I hated being with my children, ffs. What I hate is not spending time with adults engaged in adult converstion, not engaging the brain I was given for anything other than planning what the next meal or activity would be, not having a life as anything other than a mother. It was what I didn't have that made me miserable, not being with my children.

I think some people on here are just looking for a fight or a way to put other people's choices down.

yanbu my childcare is more than I earn

it would be cheaper for me to put dd2 in to the nursery I work in even with out my discount, but I use a childminder for various reasons

Annie, I understand - I hope - where you are coming from. I wanted, needed even, to go back to work when DS2 was 6-9 months old, but due to difficulties in finding both work and childcare, ended up being at home 6 months longer than planned.

What I found frustrating during that time (as well as the lack of adult company and interaction) was that I felt I didn't have a choice - or I couldn't exercise that choice, especially as I had no idea WHEN I would be able to return to work, I felt I was living in limbo, as well as struggling financially.

im no longer a childminder as parents want 'cheap childcare' and dont seem to care too much about what their children are doing. it really gets you down when a child has written their name for the first time and their parent puts the piece of paper in their pocket and says they will look at it later.

Most of the parents of the children i looked after didnt even read the diaries i wrote. Didnt ask how their child had been during the day etc all they wanted was to get hom e cause they had had a bad day.

Have you checked that you are claiming all the available subsidies? e.g the nursery voucher for 3 yo?

Also, hve you explored the salary sacrifice tax break for approved childcare? Your employer doesn't have to sign up to the expensive nursery voucher scheme, the nursery can invoices the company for the amount of childcare allowed tax-free. That is then deducted from your salary, but you benefit by the amount of tax you would have paid on that amount of money. If the childcare is more than the allowance, your DH can claim too, via his employer.

See it as an investment - it is a huge amount of cash, but while you stay in work you increase your chances of promotion and a higher salary in the future.

Also 0 is there any possibility that you and / or your DH could 'compress' your hours? Work f/t but over 4 days each, so you would each then have a free day and dispense with nursery fees on those days?

Or work fom home? You can't, of course, work much with kids around, but you can make up the work after they have gone to bed.

I think you have to look long term when looking at the costs of childcare and amount left from salary. I am slightly better off working at the moment. In 5 years time I will be a lot better off and in 20 years time I may just have caught up in salary terms with my husband having had about 3 1/2 years off raising babies and working part time a lot of the rest of the time.

This is what I would mean if I were to say I can't afford not to work now - I mean over my lifetime I can't afford it.

It's really quite depressing to read the responses on this thread - the implication that the op is only thinking of her bmw and shoe habit when she decides to work, that working women want to pay as little as they can get away with for childcare, that wanting to work for reasons other than financial ones is a dubious position and that mothers who have chosen not to work have made a virtuous decision that gives them the right to pour scorn on a woman who has chosen otherwise.

Maybe they have do have a point though - I have chosen to work throughout my childrens' lives, paying tax and national insurance as I do. I receive child benefit and the age 3 nursery vouchers as do non working mothers but otherwise my childcare is not subsidised. In my old age I will call more on the resources of the state - resources to which I will have contributed for the majority of my adult life. Mothers who have chosen not to work because it isn't 'worth it' for them will also call upon those resources - to which they have not contributed in the same degree. How marvellous - not only do I get to pay handsomely for my childcare now but I also get to subsidise those of you who don't work. How fantastic - truly us working women are not as bright as we thought!

Well, no offence but I'm glad you were never my DSs childminder. Mine used to understand entirely that having been out of the house for the best part of 11 hours by pick up time, my priority would be to get myself and DC home not stand around discussing the day - plus also having had my DC for the previous 10 hours my CM was also looking forward to a rest herself & putting her feet up!

She used to speak to me about any concerns first thing in the morning (when we were both less tired) or write any concerns/requests in a notebook for me.

How do you know the parents didn't read the diaries btw? Did you ask them?

I think Annie your posts upset some people because you imply that staying at home leaves you brain dead and with no life, some of SAHMs would disagree. Also your quote
I've been forced to stay home, which I've hated, for 18 months because of childcare costs. And if DD1 had been born a week later, in September rather than late August, I'd have been stuck at home for another year (shudders at thought!)?.-
Does imply you hate being with your daughter which is what some posters may have been referring to.
At the end of the day it is all about choices.

"It's normal to have children and put them in childcare. When you have children you're creating a future generation not making a toy to play with for a few years."

That made me cry. Of course you have children to play with them. You have children to enjoy their company. That is the point.

because when i gave them the diary they said they wouldnt have time and left it with me.

yes but when your child has been upset fallen etc surely you would want to know?
and the little one was so excited to show his parents his writing, his face when nothing was said. 5 minutes while your putting shoes on etc and the parents im talking about would happily stand talking to me about THEIR day for ages

hatesponge - you are in the minority then as everyone I know who works has family help, from the other side of the fence so to speak when I am asked "do you work?" and I say "no not right now" I always get "oh lucky you I wish I could afford not to work, but I have to pay the mortgage!" then they swan off into the BMW I don't work as I cannot afford the childcare, I will return once the eldest is at school and childcare will be cheaper.

I do know people who are always moaning about the cost of childcare yet pay someone £9 an hour to do their ironing, who tell me I am so lucky as I could not imagine how hard it is trying to coordinate nursery/school runs and working (I have no doubt it is hard).

It is one of these neverending debates, damned if you do, damned if you don't.

One of my gripes is that why does the childcare costs amways come out the womens salary? Shouldn't it be spilt?

Where are you OP? Can you not get a full time nanny for that amount of money? Would be able to take your middle child to pre-school (funded) and collect older child from school.

Good points northernlurker.

Overall, I think if you enjoy your job it is worth taking the pain of the years when you dont not earn much for the overall investment in your career/CV/pension. I have a freind whose husband left her after 18 years of marriage - 10 years of which she was not working due to looking after children. Despite loving her job he persuaded her that life was easier for them all (i.e his shirts were ironed...) if she stopped working.

She is now trying to get as much cash off him as legally possible and working at the bottom of the ladder earning a pittance, having no savings or CV to fall back on.

Hope fully most men aren't bastards like this...but I've heard a few horror stories on here.

I see the SAHM/WOHM bunfight has got into full swing

Fwiw I am wondering the same as the poster who thought it seemed odd to say you can't afford not to work if you are spending the bulk of it on childcare.

How much a month is clear profit (if that's the word)? If it's less tha a couple of hundred quid, it would surely be easier to find another way to make that while keeping the kids home?

Or are there factors at play you haven't mentioned?

Personally I would rather scale back if possible and take a career break, or see if DP could.

There must be a creative solution here?

One way of looking at childcare costs is to set them against the income of a household's second earner. That is one way of calculating whether it is worth working.

Grrr.

No family help.

No BMW.

Yes, trying to pay off mortgage as early as possible(pardon me for owning a home), and having an enjoyable holiday at least once a year.

None of working mum friends have flash cars! The lucky minority have family help. My DH is in the forces, so I don't even haver his help (through no fault of his own) more than 50% of the time.

Try and avoid sweeping generalisations!

BonsoirAnna - I'm not sure that's a good way of looking at it since the second earner's future earnings might be greater than the primary earner's. I think the finances should be looked at as a household

I think women should ask themselves whether they can afford NOT to work, quite honestly. They might not remain with that high earning man, then what?

Having said all that, I have only ever had jobs rather than a career, so I take NL's points as being good ones.

The sound of the OP though didn't come across as "afford" in that more long-term sense though.

Think though one needs to take a long term approach. It may not make financial sense per annum, but if there is potential career wise in going back, then it should be considered against future earnings, not to mention career satisfaction and personal achievement, which can be difficult to quantify.

You actually do need to look at (analyse) all your income flows and all your costs separately, not as a block. No business could possibly run by lumping all income together and never analysing it!

At the end of the day, even in these 'enlightened' times, far too many women are having to choose between having children and having a career, and far, far too many of us spend all our time pulling each other down for making different choices when we really should be supporting each other.

Makes me angry and sad.