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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Original poster

AIBU - sexist science homework

519 replies

Litchick · 17/09/2009 09:06

Lst night's science homework was to write a short passage about a famous scientist, what they discovered and its applications today.

Fine except that each question said 'he'.

Eg what was his name? What did he discover?

DD and I chose Marie Curie and changed everything to she.

AIBU to make the point on the prep sheet or just touchy?
Does it matter? It felt to me like it does. Grrrr

OP posts:
GrimmaTheNome · 17/09/2009 18:04

UQD:
In most cases I'm happy enough to let 'he' or 'man' pass as a generic. In this particular case, the point you are maybe missing is that there really is an awful gender imbalance in science and its really quite important not to - even subtly,probably unthinkingly - reinforce gender stereotypes.

Takver · 17/09/2009 18:05

In Spanish the polite form these days (at least where we were in letters home etc) tends to be 'ell@' using the @ as a mixed o/a
I'm afraid UQD that in my consultancy days I was always the bloody awkward junior saying 'but why do we have to call them man days'. Funnily enough, I was also the one woman who didn't get dumped on to type things up when the secretaries were busy, and the one woman who ended up with a job (and owning a share of the company) when there was a massive shake up.

UnquietDad · 17/09/2009 18:28

Not sure about the list of medieval people. The fact that there is that ratio is probably an interesting talking point in itself. After all, doesn't it reflect the balance of power at the time? It's like those lists of "great writers" or "great painters" where they are 90% (or more) men, and one side gets cross about this while the other tries to explain patiently that this is just the way history has left things. (Who was the woman? I hope it was Eleanor of Aquitaine.)

Oh, and I can see "man days" sounds archaic. Nobody would use that now, surely.

And I am not Parsons... Nicholas or Tony. But why the thud?

ZephirineDrouhin · 17/09/2009 18:46

YANBU at all.

Do keep digging, UnquietDad

VulpusinaWilfsuit · 17/09/2009 18:49

Man hours is a phrase I hear A Lot. In a University ffs. Our council has a Chairman. Even when it is a woman.

I think you underestimate the extent of gendered language in current use UQD, and how it rankles.

GrimmaTheNome · 17/09/2009 18:49

No UQD, it very specificially wasn't Eleanor:

dd's history project last autumn was to write a biography of an important person from the period 1000-1450. The teacher gave them a list to choose from, which included one woman and I think about 15 men. This from the era that produced Eleanor of Aquitaine, the Empress Matilda, Julian of Norwich, Margaret of Scotland etc etc. Dd went back to school and opted to do a biography of Eleanor of Aquitaine. Teacher said no, because Eleanor was foreign and they were supposed to study British history. (Dd still trying to work out a way in which Eleanor was foreign which does not equally apply to Henry II and Richard I, both on teacher's list).

GrimmaTheNome · 17/09/2009 18:54

(Not my post originally, BTW)
However - in general you do have a point that these 'famous' lists do tend to be white males. Regrettable or not, females (and black people, same phenomenon happens there but sans grammar issue!) are underrepresented if you want famous scientists, artists etc (not so bad in literature. I'm rather uncomfortable when the same few are trotted out, or someone we've never heard of is suddenly promoted to fame.

TheFallenMadonna · 17/09/2009 19:03

I think I'd have done the homework a bit differently anyhow TBH. I bet she gets a whole bunch of Einsteins, Curies (everyone's token female scientist, with apologies to the OP), Darwins and maybe Flemings (but no mention of Florey and Chain) - unless the class has some clued-up parents. I'd like some of the more unsung heroines/heroes of science to get a look in. I like pupils to do a timeline of progress in a particular field for example. You bring in more people that way, and it's nice to see science as a developing area, rather than a list of almost one-off inventions and discoveries. But no - not unreasonalbe to be grrrr at the 'he' in the homework.

Tinfoil · 17/09/2009 20:07

YANBU.

tribpot · 17/09/2009 20:34

I don't think English has a 'correct' generic, although Latin languages do indeed take 'he' as that form. As such the homework could at least have said he/she. LOL at the ell@ in Spanish, we would never have done that 10 years ago (when I lived in Spain).

Working in a field where women are dramatically under-represented I totally support the OP's efforts.

UnquietDad · 17/09/2009 20:50

Not digging at all. Rather doggedly keeping my end up, if I do say so myself.

It does remind me a bit of that list which circulates on the internet about the differences between men and women. One of them is "if we say something, and it can be interpreted in two ways, and one of them makes you angry or upset - then we meant the other way."

This is "AIBU" after all. Both yes and no responses are permitted...

GrimmaTheNome · 17/09/2009 20:56

Is he allowed to say that? Do we feel that 'keeping my end up' has dominant male overtones?

Or have I just watched too many Carry On films?

MrsEricBanaMT · 17/09/2009 20:59

I just swooned UQD

'Keeping my end up' had male overtones Grimma - dunno about dominant ones. Unless eveything male is by defalut dominant?

So UQD, what do you write? Proper books an' that?

MrsEricBanaMT · 17/09/2009 21:04

" just don't think there is always a place for jumping up and down and saying "sexism!" where a more amenable explanation is available. "

I agree. The more amenable explanation is that its just thoughtless. But I do actually think it is also a bit sexist in this day and age. For a teacher who should really know these things. It isn't misogynous though!

I don't know if anyones listening to me but I did say before that all the science books I have read in teh last 5-10 years use 'she' as the generic.

StayFrostyMT · 17/09/2009 21:07

I just changed my name too.

StayFrosty · 17/09/2009 21:23

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EightiesChick · 17/09/2009 21:24

But what if the sexist explanation is more likely than the amenable one?

UQD, why isn't it sexist when the generic masculine is used?

MrsEricBanaMT, I'm glad to hear that the generic feminine is gaining ground in science books. It's about time it did somewhere other than in reference to babies or cats (the only two places you commonly see it used).

Deborah Cameron's Verbal Hygiene is the masterwork here for explaining why these things are controversial and why people get so het up on the lines of 'but I didn't mean it that way'. The whole book's great but chapter four (I think), 'Political correctness and its discontents' is the one that relates to this topic. Basically people don't like the idea that the language they use doesn't mean to others exactly what they want it to mean, neither more or less (as Humpty Dumpty says). I can root out some more of Cameron's argument about why 'she' should be used more often, but on the other hand I might leave it for a bit and have a beer instead.

StayFrostyMT · 17/09/2009 21:28

eh?! Where'd you come from StayFrosty? lol

I'm just watching Generation Kill, hence the change.

StayFrosty · 17/09/2009 21:31

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Monkeytrews · 17/09/2009 21:34

See, I change it back.

Never knew you existed - sorry!

Stay frosty dude

StayFrosty · 17/09/2009 21:41

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corriefan · 17/09/2009 21:51

Maybe one of you is the mum who during a little sing-song at the end of a baby and toddler group loudly sang an alternative version to Miss Polly:

"... The Doctor came with her hat and her bag and knocked on the door with a rat-a-tat-tat...." etc.

I actually did it myself when teaching a Reception class since and a little boy said "but women are nurses and men are doctors" so it did get them thinking.

However, being a teacher I do have a bit of sympathy for the woman in question- the sheet could have been from a published scheme or something that she quickly ran off. It is most likely an oversight rather than deep-rooted sexism. We've all been brought up with gender stereotypes and yes we do need to overcome them but I don't feel comfortable with the idea that people who do make incorrect assumptions about gender due to title or career should be attacked, it's just what they have grown up with. With women being more and more influential in all careers it will naturally cease to be an issue, surely?

There are a lot of threads revolving around how wrong teachers are, as if you're waiting to pounce! You are obviously going to have more expertise in certain areas, know more about your own children and have certain issues that are very important to you.

ZephirineDrouhin · 17/09/2009 22:03

Perhaps "keeping your end up" is the phallic equivalent of the more chthonic "digging yourself out of a hole"

But not sexist? Seriously? Clearly there are no grounds to suppose that the teacher is some kind of reactionary misogynist - more likely just a bit careless with their language. But I would have thought that the effect of this kind of language in reinforcing gender stereotypes is unarguable (particularly when directed at children).

GrimmaTheNome · 17/09/2009 22:17

corrie, I don't ususally like the updating of nursery rhymes, but in the case of Miss Polly its well justified - nowadays there are lots of women GPs at least, so the little boy was still hooked into an outdated stereotype

Of course the home-visit aspect is totally outdated

LeninGrad · 17/09/2009 22:18

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