To think the 11+ is the work of the devil?

[LynetteScavo]

And if you don't agree with me, you're wrong.

Thing is too that at GS, perhaps 10 to 20% of the lesson time/syllabus is linked to maths, the other 80% odd is literacy based.
My dd excels (at primary) at lit & comp and has achieved levels 5c & 5c and is the extended lit group as she was in yr 6 lit last year.
However, her maths, in feb last yr was "only" 3a in comparason, therefore, I had her assessed by a tutor who felt she would do very well in grammar, would not need any help with V & NVR other than familiarisation, but yes, needed regrounding in maths. Now, my dd does her homework whilst crying, stropping and laying her head on the table... at school she is very focussed and a bit of a brown nose. Therefore we had the tutor help her with maths from Feb to July. She got to a 4a within that time.
A point made to me by dd's teacher is that any child can be given any amount of tutoring, but not all children have the ability to learn and retain it and get results whilst taking sats or kent test on their own. Therefore it's not usually a case of tutoring "passing the test", its the childs confidence and inate ability.
Anyway, my dd's school burnt to the ground, during classes, whilst the children were trapped hysterically on the field at the start of her yr 3, they were temporarily rehoused in a zoo (how cool I know) then for the next 2 yrs, were bussed to a town 10 miles away and taught in an empty, rundown school. Literally when it started, they had work books and pencils, the only reading books were those donated by parents, and all the teachers planning had to be redone.
They lost their laptops in the fire.
DD was therefore hugely disadvantaged for that year and infact, cried daily at school. It had a profound affect on her, night terrors, sleep walking, nervousness etc
One day a boy got his finger stuck ina hole in the floor (LOL) and as the teachers couldnt get it out, they called the fire brigade
Who arrived with sirens blaring, lights flashing and ran dramatically into the school hall. DD's class had been sent out to play as it was their classmate, and dd was so terrifed that her legs gave way.
My point being that I wanted to give her the chance to regroup & get back to where she possibly would have been, without the fire.
I do feel the need to defend myself though.

I don't think that anyone would begrudge you employing a tutor,QOD,-it sounds a nightmare!

it was a total nightmare, and yet, a heck of a lot of kids where completely unscathed! Never mentioned it, didn't care, found the bus trip fun (dd got bullied), liked the excitement.......... odd things kids!

Good grief QOD - that's

I know I wished you and your dd good luck on the other thread but Good luck x 3!

QOD -

That would be funny if it weren't true!

Yep, I was trying to find a link to a video of the fire online, but I can't find it all now, but I know what you mean!

sorry i am laughing at the "I need a tutor due to finger stuck in a hole" story.
tutor away - it doesnt bother me at all.

Eton costs £28k/year. People should definitely have the choice to reject that and go for the state alternative.

yes Noah, thats the only reason, and I am glad it doesn't bother you cos I REALLY care what you think

why do people justify the tutors
I might have tutored mine if i had not had the energy to go through the papers with them
or they had been less 'eager' to learn

the brightest linguist in the country would probably fail when faced with the 11+ 'blind'

my dcs did not have lessons they were out of area kids so selected after the 'in area' places

dd in particular is a lazy oik and middling results in her year - top for sciences ( where you dont have to work)

i must say justify away re tutors but be sure it is the right place for your child.

from what i have gleaned 'private' schools help the kids more. grammars expect initiative to drive the kid

hope zoo does not get e coli

I did it, it was ok in those days.
Hothousing not very useful in most situations imho but each to their own
We couldn't afford it and anyway we are part of a just try your best family.

Therefore I think YABU

I think 11+ should be only VR and non VR which tests for innate talent NOT how much you have crammed into you.
QOD I don't know how you calculate that 10-20% of syllabus is maths based ?
MY 2 DS are both at GS.The one in the first year Out of 40 periods
5 maths
3 Biology
3 Chemeistry
3 Physics
2 DT
2 IT
3 Geography (which has some maths content with graphs and charts)

good point katie, I will mention that to my daughters headteacher! I took it from the horses mouth when she was discussing dd's future schooling.

I went to grammar and didn't take chemistry or physics as options, and our IT was soooooo basic, so my schooling there was certainly more on the literacy side, I moved into the area from yr 3 (yr 9 as is now).

katiestar - the test my DS will do is only math, non verbal reasoning, and verbal reasoning.

It's supposed to be as tutor-proof as possible.

Mine too (no English). Suspect that is mostly in boys' schools? ie not just tutor proof but also gender specific?

Fwiw I think it's unrealistic to think that a child could do the 11 plus without having some previous experience of it. We are moving to an area with grammar schools and are having to understand it all very quickly. The exams are in a few weeks. I first showed my dd a VR and NVR paper last week and she'd never seen anything like them before. She is a bright girl, got 5's at the end of year 5, but not in the mega bright group iyswim. I don't think she'd have passed the test if I'd given it to her last week. However having spent about half an hour a day for four/five days she did a practise paper at the weekend and got a great result.

I think she's the kind of child who would benefit from a grammar school, certainly a sufferer of boffin syndrome. I don't know if she'll pass, we've yet to look at NVR and I struggle with those. If she does it'll be because she had some tutoring albeit with just me - so to that end I don't think it's unreasonable to tutor. I do, however think that some help should be available to all children. If primary schools are not doing any 11plus work, what hope is there for the bright children without pushy supportive parents like me?

Mag - you talk alot of sense. There are no doubt lots of children sitting the 11+ without having seen a paper or an answer sheet and they surely are at a disadvantage.

My DD is taking it this afternoon (Maths) and VR tomorrow. She is cool about it because I have played it down, she doesn't respond well to pressure especially in an exam situation and we are lucky to live near a good comp (outstanding actually) and the gramma schools are on the other side of the borough so it would mean lots of buses. We'll see what happens.

Lots of sick-looking parents in the playground this morning - for some there is real pressure to pass, especially those who have been tutored to pass and promised a Ferrari if they do! LOL

gramma???????????? lost my R GRAMMAR LOL

The issue that you are missing is that a pass is not good enough! The best boys grammar schools in Kent only take boys who get more than 98%. A tutor is pretty essential unless you want a mediocre grammar school!

I still believe that if you need tutoring to pass you shouldn't be going to grammar school anyway. Imagine the pressure of keeping up that standard if you're not cut out for it.

Research into the value added by grammar schools shows that children who are borderline candidates for grammar school improve by a greater margin than:

1. Children with similar attainment levels who don't pass the 11 plus.
2. Children with similar attainment levels who attend secondary schools in non-selective areas.
3. Children with higher attainment levels at grammar or other secondary schools.

In other words, children who 'scrape in' to grammar schools benefit more from the existence of grammar schools than any other group.

One of the relevant papers is by Schagen & Schagen (2001).

Another finding is that value added is greater for bright but poor grammar school children than it is for the rest of the grammar school population, but the bright but poor children are under-represented in admissions (Atkinson, Gregg & McConnell).

Hope your DD was OK Kbear - Some parents must put real pressure on their DC's...last year I was told of a boy busrting in to tears in the middle of the test, children walking out of the exam hall, and of one child being sick. And this was only at one test centre.
Another mum told me when she went to collect her DD it was like picking a child up from a car crash the kids were in such a state.

I've really played it down with DS, and we're lucky that he can go to a decent faith comprehensive, but it will mean spending 2 hours a day on the bus.

I am dreading exam day for that reason LynetteS I think seeing the pressure the other children are under will effect all the dc's no matter how you've underplayed it. It's also very long, were we are planning to go there are three papers to do with a short break in between. I'd find that exhausting and I'm not 10.

Thanks LynetteScavo - she wandered out of school with her friends, they were all pretty relaxed and think they did "okay". We then went straight to my son's party so haven't had much time to think about tomorrow. Just went up to kiss her goodnight and there she was sleeping with a book on her face! I think the school have handled it all very well and down played it.