to be so upset and angry about an accident ds had at nursery?

[NatKat]

Hi. I was hoping for some views on how I should manage a situation at my ds nursery. He is almost 3 years old. A couple of months ago I picked him up in the evening to find that he had a swollen and slightly cut upper lip. The staff rather sheepishly reported that he had fallen after breakfast at 8am and hit his mouth on the table. Poor ds looked very upset and tearful. They reported that he had not eaten anything all day and that he had sobbed himself to sleep at nap time. I was shocked and appalled that they had not contacted me and did not even administer any pain medication. I asked why they did not contact me but they had no response. I am currently on maternity leave and only 10 minutes away, not that I wouldn't have come home from work if I was there. I didn't pursue it at the time but I have continued to be upset about the way he was treated that day. Earlier this week I noticed that his front tooth has started to go grey and it has been confirmed by a dentist that it has died. This has confirmed to me that the poor child must have had a bad fall that day and must have been in a lot of pain. We have withdrawn him from the nursery and told them to expect a written complaint. However, we are considering reporting them to OFSTEAD too. There have been a number of less severe incidents at the nursery that we have been unhappy about. In particular, there appeared to be a very high number of accident forms which lead us to question how well the children were being supervised. He also had a very bad nappy rash when he was in the baby room - skin was broken and took over a week to heal. Has anyone else any experience of complaining about a nursery? How many minor accidents are acceptable? I do of course understand that toddlers have accidents but at one point we being asked to sign two or three accident forms a week.

sorry to read your wee one has fall
use your judgement if you are unhappy do alert Ofsted and book face to face meeting with manager

Message withdrawn

unfair and alarmist to globally say nurseries are negligent. some nurseries are negligent the majority are good

Yes, indeed stickylittlefingers the turnover does appear to be very high and worrying that staff voice displeasure about their experience of working there. So wish that we had found a nice caring nursery. Thankfully, some of the staff were lovely and no doubt took very good care of him and all the other children.

debs40: I'm NatKat's DH and have previously run a campaign that has involved multiple MPs and a Government Ministry.

If people were interested in starting a campaign you need to do a few things before speaking to MPs.

MPs are a prime conduit to gaining access to people who can actually change thing. However, ultimately, they are only interested in a campaign if it will further their own cause within their constituency (i.e. voters numbers).

Before approaching an MP you really need:

1. Clear goals for the campaign;
2. A road-map on how to achieve these; and
3. A minimum of 200 signatories.

It's sort of like trying to get a business loan: they're much more likely to give you the money if you already a successful business.

Also MPs and their offices will help, but you still end-up having to do a lot of the grunt work. Saying that I'm very grateful to our local MPs who have helped me massively with a previous campaign.

Just as a pointer re the possible campaign about nursery complaints: one of the reasons that the previous system of publishing all complaints on the website was changed was due to malicious complaints. You can complain about a nursery completely anonymously and Ofsted still has to investigate if it raises a concern that the EYFS Welfare Requirements or other legal requirements are not being met. If you don't particularly like the nursery down the road, it doesn't take a lot of effort to put in a new anonymous complaint every other week. Fine they might all turn out to be "unfounded" but prospective parents will just see the figure of "37 complaints" at the bottom of the inspection report and will most likely decide there's no smoke without fire. I'm not saying that's reason enough to not publicise the complaints, it's just something to bear in mind.

squirrel - that was the argument made by the National Day Nurseries Association and others which was accepted by Ofsted without any consultation or discussion. It resulted in their policy being changed.

I think it is not an effective one. The complaint system does not work in the way you suggest.

Ofsted take complaints from parents not people down the road.Further, although the complaint remains anonymous as far as the nusery/report is concerned, Ofsted do take your personal details and correspond with you.

How many people would really go to the effort to make serious complaints against their own nursery for no purpose/malicious reasons?

This was Ofsted bowing to industry pressure.Yet, they are funded by the public purse

Miss Sunny, My opinion is just that, 'my opinion'. I am entitled to draw my own conclusions! I did not say i had performed widespread research, perhaps read my post again more carefully.

Yes, i do think that provided that a parent is loving and caring then a child will be better in its care then that of a paid stranger operating for and motivated by profit. Perhaps your the naive one for assuming that everyone will nurture and love your child unconditionally.

Sorry i seem to have hit a nerve with you. I know from experience that it is not nice having to hand over your much loved little child to anothers unmeasured care. You can hope for the best but you can't guarentee it. If you are in this position i can understand why you cling to the belief that you nursery staff will be attentive to your child as you would be. To imagine or ponder otherwise would be very unsettling for you.

For many people not using childcare isn't an option, they have to use it in order to pay the mortgage/make life comfortable. I am fully aware of this and don't judge their choice to use a nursery at all, needs must after all.

Debs - Ofsted don't just take complaints from parents. Parents are a large percentage of those who do raise concerns, but Ofsted will listen to anyone who has concerns about a childcare service. That could be ex-members of staff, other professionals, neighbours or even passers-by. And concerns can be raised anonymously - you are not obliged to give your name when making a complaint by telephone and you can use the Ofsted website and leave the name field blank. This obviously prevents Ofsted from being able to contact you to ask for further information or give you an outcome to their investigation, and it carries more weight if you put your name to your concerns, but they will still investigate.

You might be surprised how many disgruntled ex-partners/neighbours/ex-staff/former friends suddenly develop concerns about the welfare of children at childminders and nurseries. Whether they are malicious or not is often hard to judge when it's he-said, she-said, but an awful lot of complaints are made from those groups of people.

I am not going to get into an argument about this and hijack someone's post but the reality is that Ofsted are very unlikely to do anything about concerns raised by anybody who does not have first hand experience of the nursery e.g. parents or staff. I have been through the process twice and there is no way they would have taken action without me providing my details.

Further, they encourage people to identify themselves and I cannot believe anonymous complaints are given much weight. I am surprised at the suggestion of an anonymous email contact. I cannot see it on their site and the complaints gudiance form makes no mention of it. It says "You do not have to give us your name and contact details. However, it may help us to investigate your concern if we can contact you, for example, to check information".

The first stage in their process is usually to bounce the matter back to the provider at which point vexatious complaints could surely be weeded out. There are a myriad of solutions other than the one they have at present - i.e. nothing is recorded unless a proved contravention (very hard to achieve)and nothing recorded at all until the next Ofsted report (which could be 3 years down the line).

This could mean that existing and prospective parents are not made aware of serious contraventions regarding a failure to vet and evidence ratios.

I cannot see many parents would be happy with this if they knew about it.

What is your experience of Ofsted?

Matcat thanks for your message. I thought at the time of my experience that something really should be done to lobby for a parent's voice within Ofsted to counterbalance the influence of the nursery industry.

Squirrel - Aplologies, I can see that Ofsted now have a section on their website, by the reports for each provider which allows details of any substantiated complaint. Maybe things are looking up!

I don't want to be all mysterious but equally I can't really go into my exact previous experience with Ofsted, but if I just say that it's professional and to do with compliance and investigation hopefully that will do the trick!

In practice it will always carry more weight if someone is willing to put their name alongside their concerns, but if Ofsted get a call from someone unwilling to give their name saying that a nursery has one member of staff to twenty preschool age children and aren't giving them any food or drink all day, an inspector will still be sent out at the first opportunity to go and take a look. Equally if someone gives their full details and raises a concern that is less to do with safeguarding eg. the food provided is not nutritious, it's likely that the provider will be sent a letter first asking for their comments and sample menus for example.

Provider led enquiries are always the first port of call for cases where children do not appear to be at risk and there is no real benefit for an inspector to physically see the premises (as there would be if it was staffing levels, hygiene, safety of the premises).

It is right that under the new complaints commmitment a summary of Ofsted's investigation is published next to the inspection reports on the website where "action has been taken" either by the provider or Ofsted. That is more practical than the old system of waiting until the next inspection report is published, which might have been 2-3 years after the action was taken. It's still not a proper "complaints" recording system though, since as you went into above Ofsted doesn't investigate complaints - they are just prompts to investigate that the statutory requirements may not be being met! I personally think that in that case, calling it a complaints committment is pretty misleading.

I would certainly encourage a wider public understanding that Ofsted as a regulator doesn't investigate complaints about childcare since it seems to set some people up with expectations that can't be met. I'll keep well out of the discussion about whether there should be a way of handling complaints and finding in favour of one side or the other though!

I think that it will be important for us to go through the Ofsted complaints procedure before we can think much more about a campaign. This way we will have followed the recommended route and will be the a better position to fully appreciate its limitations as they stand today. We have already written to the nursery to inform them that we have withdrawn DS and given brief details. We have also requested copies of DS' incident forms for our own information.

We are aware that we will then have to make a formal complaint to the nursery and see if we can resolve the matter that way. We are almost certain that their response will not be satisfactory due to a verbal complaint we made about severe nappy rash a couple of years ago. Once we have done that, we will be in a position to complain to Ofsted. All of your comments have been extremely useful and have helped us to begin to think about how to frame the complaint.

Again, I have to say that I agree with tinseltot. I too feel that I have finally come to terms with the fact that on the whole nurseries simply cannot offer the level of care and nurturing that a loving parent or family member can. The ratios simply do not allow for it - and that is when the appropriate numbers of staff are actually present in the room. Also, I don't doubt for a moment that nurseries can be very stressful places to work and this in turn will filter down to the care that the children receive.

This for me feels like a very uncomfortable truth that I have hidden from for a long time. Even before I had children I found myself defending nurseries because I knew that I would have to rely on one in order to keep my long fought for career. However, I felt that in order to keep this belief I would have to shut my ears to so much information to the contrary such as friends experiences or the latest piece of research.

I think that nurseries have many many advantages such as encouraging social skills and lots of different play experiences. However, there have been many occasions been aware that DS would have preferred to have been at home due to being slightly under the weather or perhaps tired. As it was not reasonable for me to stay home on these days he would have to head off to nursery. This may be OK for a school aged child but for a baby or a 2 year old?

On a seperate note - I find it disturbing that some people can be so complacent about head injuries. Two head injuries a week is quite serious IMO.

Bang on the spot Natcat. I could have typed your last post. Nurseries do have benefits yes but lets not kid ourselves that they are anywhere near to being ideal. We have all picked up our children from nursery and noticed a little baby crying and being ignored. Or a toddler with snot dripping down it's chin. Or noticed that a room stinks of filthy nappies. We have all taken a child to nursery when in honesty we knew they were not 100% well (and we were too busy at work to justify a day off). Most of us will have had some mornings when our children cried or made it clear that they wanted to stay with us yet we left them anyway.

School age children are better able to help and entertain themselves. They are better equipped to seek attention and explain why they are upset and what they need. Most importantly they are articulate enough to alert their parents to problems or unfair/unequal/unkind treatment. Babies and toddlers have none of these advantages and so you are left having to place your entire trust in their caregiver.

I know i buried my head in the sand as i handed my 1 year old over to nursery as i rushed off to work each morning. It is an inconvenient fact and it is not palatable. But truth it is. And deep down most working parents relying on nurseries know this. But deny the truth you must if you are to continue to function. I recall sitting at my desk smiling and telling others that my dd loved nursery and everything was working out really well. As the words fell from my mouth though i knew they were hollow.

Sadly though most people have little choice but to rely on childcare. There is no easy answer. Your tiny babies will grow up so fast. For me it made sense to take a career break and ensure that both my children and i enjoyed and made the most of their early life. I have not for 1 second regretted my choice. That said I know how lucky i am.

One final point. If NatKat's child had suffered a head injury at home whilst in her care Natkat's response would have been instinctive, primal and automatic. She would have felt her heart quicken, her stomach would have risen up, she would have felt shakey, sick and panicy. She would have become hot and started to sweat profusely. She would have sought help if required and watched her percious baby closely all day. When he fell asleep she would have watched and checked him regularly worried sick that the head injury had caused the sleepiness. Even if the accident was not in any way her fault Natkat would have felt angry and upset with herself that her child was hurt. She would have taken all possible steps to make sure that a si ilar injury or situation did not hapopen again. Contrast all that with what actually happened the day that Natkat's child was hurt at nursery. I can assure you that no-one in the room that day felt even a fraction of the concern and emotion that his mother would have felt in the same circumstances.

Actually, I disagree a little with the generalisation on that post tinseltot.
My SIL works as a nursery nurse; she has worked in bad nurseries and good nurseries (she has reported bad ones to OFSTEAD). She loves the children that she works with, and has been thoroughly upset if a child has been hurt in her room.

Natcat have you thought about working part time or maybe finding a good childminder?

I don't think you'd feel happy about using a nursery again after this experience, but do you really want to be home 24/7 after being used to working? I'm not able to work at the moment due to illness and find it boring at times. I enjoyed my work although only part time and wonder if you might miss going out to work?

On the nursery front, I worked in a nursery and you can't ring the parents every 5 minutes for little things but I'm surprised they didn't ring you on this occasion. Personally, I would have had concerns if a child I was caring for couldn't/wouldn't sleep (poor thing). And I don't get the impression the staff were very bothered. Also, missing one meal is different to not eating all day. And did he not drink anything all day? Poor lamb.

A childminder (if you get the right one) would have cuddled him better and coaxed him to eat/drink something even if not much, and would def been upset that he was hurt.

I use a CM; I dont knock nurseries (like most things in life, there are good and bad ones), but I personally felt more comfortable with a smaller ratio.
My cm has lots of children under her care but the way their times work mean that there are not many children there on the same day. Until recently, there was one day a week where DD was the only child after doing the morning school run.
I am sorry about the experience your son had btw.

I'm a childminder, 1st of all I would like to say that you should defanatly have been informed of the accident. I would have called when I knew you were on a break and kept you upto date via text message if you desided to stay at work.
I have to fill in an accident form if a child falls over thin air (it happens) and hurts themselves. How did it happen? they were walking along looked at a bird and fell (not really) usually they just run faster than their legs can carry them. crawlers, early walkers, children having growing spurts, and children who like to run as fast as they can everywhere they go have the most accidends in my expirience, never bad ones though. These children usually stop having accidents by about 5 or 6 though, the children who are never allowed to fall properly or get hurt carry on having (even worse) accidents up untill they are 9 or 10, they also have no confidence and are afraid to try new things. I think its a case of finding a balence and not being afraid to let them take a challenge that could cause a small risk of a bruise.

'We have all picked up our children from nursery and noticed a little baby crying and being ignored. Or a toddler with snot dripping down it's chin. Or noticed that a room stinks of filthy nappies'

Erm, no actually. I suggest that means you were visiting the bad ones. I have never seen a child ignored nor a low ratio. They all seem far more cheery than me. Please dont let this digress into a nursery - no nursery thread. There are good ones and bad ones etc etc. Few people their child in nursery without making sure it is the best they can or without having to for one reason or another.

Anyway - my nursery ALWAYS ring for the slightest thing - to the point they drive me insane. Today for example

'baby peppa was crawling and bumped her head slightly. She didnt cry and there was no mark but just letting you know'

'toddler peppa has a very slight scratch on his arm'

The worse nappy rash DD has had has been my fault. Her skin is very sensitive and her nappies just dont smell and she is happy to sit in them

I have never sent children home with snoty noses and still crying from the morning, I never ignore them, they might have to wait 5 mins while I make a fresh bottle up but I will carry them and talk to the other children who are kindly informing me that baby is crying and DS has knocked their tower down, that DD wants a drink DS1 can't find his shoes and childminded child age 4 has lost one of his trains. I ddeal with them all and wouldn't dream of ignoring them.

How do you change your nickname?

I would be devastated to find my child had been at nursery all day and had not eaten due to pain...so YANBU to complain.

Surely an incident like this could have put your dc off nursery for good. As you are the parent they should have phoned you for you to make the decision whether or not to pick him up.